U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-29-2008, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
146 posts, read 272,873 times
Reputation: 57

Advertisements

Thanks Alpha8207 and I hope things calm down a bit.

I do believe that the original question was answered in the third post.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-31-2008, 11:19 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,089,868 times
Reputation: 284
Perhaps we can get back to the original concept here. Let me preface it by saying, "Yes, I believe that my beliefs are right?" So do Mormons believe theirs are right. But that's not the point. Let me attempt to state it again.

For centuries Christianity held to certain very fundamental beliefs such as the Trinity, salvation through grace alone, the total depravity of man, the sovereign of God, etc. Unfortunately, many groups formed over the years with certain distinctives difficult to justify biblically but which nonetheless divided Christians one from another. This denominationalism was the fertile ground for Joseph Smith to claim that God told them "all were wrong" and to give the world a "restored" gospel.

This idea that mainstream Christianity has some truth but that the Mormon church has the whole truth because of Joseph Smith's vision is the basis for the "fight" many of you seem to be laying on me. If Mormons would be more forthcoming about what they really think about us, this idea that I and others like me are the ones "picking the fight" might take on a different perspective. I am after honesty here. The Christianity that Joseph Smith taught and the historical Christianity upon which the doctrines of the mainline churches are based are antithetical. Why is it so wrong for me to say that and insist that we lay the cards on the table and admit that we are using the same terms with different meanings?

How many Christians would have a different view of Mormonism's claim to Christianity if Mormon doctrine was clearly delineated? And for the record, I am 58 years old and married to an ex-mormon. We HAVE studied these issues extensively throughout the years. We possess and have read many of the writings of Mormonism--Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, Journal of Discourses, etc. To characterize me as someone who merely looks to opponents of Mormonism for my understanding and that I pretty much copy and paste is totally unjustified. You do not know me or what I have studied. I have seen this accusation before. But the bottom line remains--what difference does it make what or who the source is? Are the statements true?

Did Jesus come about through an actual physical union between God and Mary? Note the following (some from my own research and some from the research of others!):

"I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also MY SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST (emphasis mine). According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it" (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 8:211).

God the Father, who is an exalted man of flesh and bones, came to the earth and had physical sex with Mary and produced Jesus' physical body! (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22; Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 471). This is NOT the Jesus of Christianity.

"Christ was begotten of God. He is NOT born without the aid of man and that MAN [emphasis mine] was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18).

Bruce R. McConkie also wrote: "And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural sense of events" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 742).

McConkie again: "our Lord is the only Son of the Father IN THE FLESH. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Sonmeans son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the SAME WAY (emphasis mine) that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547-47).

And who is the Father? I got this quote from MY own copy of the Journal of Discourses which I have PERSONALLY studied!

Our God and Father in heaven, . . . has a body, with parts the same as you and I have . . . . His son Jesus Christ . . . has a body LIKE HIS FATHER [emphasis mine]. . . . The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. THE INFIDEL [that's everyone who is not a Mormon!--statement mine] would have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about this father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The INFIDEL FRATERNITY [teachers of the mainstream churches] teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When OUR FATHER ADAM [emphasis mine] came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, ONE OF HIS WIVES [emphasis mine], with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken-He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, MUST HEAR IT, AND KNOW IT, AND WILL KNOW IT SOONER OR LATER" [emphasis mine] (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5:50, 51).

There are many more teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and Bruce R. McConkie that are totally outside the realm of historical Christianity.

Again, despite how people want to portray me, this is not a personal attack on any Mormon here. If you are proud to be a Mormon, that's fine. I am not attempting to restrict anyone's faith here. It seems clear to me, however, that Mormonism and biblical Christianity are not compatible and that, based upon the teachings of their own leaders, the Jesus of Mormonism is simply not the Jesus of the Bible.

If Jesus is not fully man and fully God, existing from all eternity past, He is not the Jesus of the Bible and historic Christianity.

If Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan (and of all of us for that matter), and was begotten through the sexual relations between a Father and Mother in the "eternal world" and who then received his physical body through sexual relations of that same Father in the flesh with Mary on earth, HE IS NOT the Jesus of the Bible.

NOTE: Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.158--"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, THE LAWFUL WIFE OF GOD THE FATHER (emphasis mine):

Two antithetical things cannot be equally true. Either one is right and the other is wrong, or both are wrong and something else is right.

Why won't Mormons clearly and plainly share what they truly believe about the nature and person of Christ instead of attempting to let others believe that they believe in the same Jesus the denominations of historic Christendom do? Why won't Mormons come right out and tell US that unless WE become Mormons, there is no possibility of our attaining any level higher than the terrestrial level because only those baptized into the Mormon faith and who live worthy lives on earth can attain to the highest level--the celestrial level? Only Mormon men can achieve godhood and thereby rule over other worlds in the same way the "God with whom we have to do" rules over this one.

I guess what I am attempting to achieve here is an openness on the part of Mormons to go beyond merely saying "I believe in Jesus," and, thereby, expecting others to simply accept their word without explaining exactly who Jesus is according to the doctrines of Mormonism. How far can one deny and distort the basic, fundamental doctrines of mainstream Christianity and still qualify for that title?

Are you in agreement with Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, Bruce R. McConkie etc.? Are their doctrines compatible with the doctrines of Christianity?

Why are so many upset by my questions and my insistence on answers? Why do so many characterize me as hateful and wicked and obsessive? Christianity did not break into the house of Mormonism; Mormonism broke into the house of Christianity and insisted that it be considered part of the family.

Are there any Mormons here who would like to openly discuss the Mormon doctrines and teachings behind their understanding of Jesus' nature and existence? Spell it out plainly to us with support:

Who is God the Father?
Who is the real Jesus?
How did Jesus come into being?
Where were all of us before we were born into this world?
What is the nature of man?
What is salvation?

Sincerely, Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2008, 12:53 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,235,316 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
If Mormons would be more forthcoming about what they really think about us,
Let me be clear. WE THE MEMBERS OF THE LDS FAITH DO NOT THINK ABOUT OTHER CHURCHES!!! WE ARE TOO BUSY TAKING CARE OF BUSINESS IN OUR OWN CHURCH!!! Hopefully, that was sufficiently clear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Who is God the Father?
He is God the Father

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Who is the real Jesus?
He's contestant number 4, and the Son of God the Father.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
How did Jesus come into being?
He was created by God the Father in spirit form and eventually was born into mortality through Mary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Where were all of us before we were born into this world?
We were in the premortal existence with God the Father.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
What is the nature of man?
He is mortal and being tested by God the Father.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
What is salvation?
Salvation is to enjoy eternity in the company of God the Father and futher His work.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2008, 07:21 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,141,502 times
Reputation: 1306
Some questions, Are these based on what JS was revealed or something that is considered current revelations or statements spoken in humen error?

Is Godhood is the ultimate goal of the Mormon gospel ?

Past Living Prophet and President Spencer W. Kimball, quoted in the Doctrine & Covenants Student Manual, p. 358.

"Bretheren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe."


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________





Chapter 47 of Gospel Principles is titled "Exaltation". On page 302 the phrase "we can become like him" is expanded. Under the heading "Blessings of Exaltation", we read:
Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings ... They will become gods. Gospel Principles, Chp. 47 p. 302.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________

On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon ... and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is a grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become!
Past Living Prophet and President Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, November 1994, p. 48

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

They shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. D&C, 132:19,20

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-31-2008 at 07:22 PM.. Reason: editing
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2008, 07:41 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,235,316 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Some questions, Are these based on what JS was revealed or something that is considered current revelations or statements spoken in humen error?
Anything regarding Godhood is from Joseph Smith; however, this is not canon or doctrine. It has been repeated many times. What specifically Godhood means is not clear. As I have stated before, it could in fact mean that we will create worlds in the future and test our own childern, but there is no specific information regarding this. I believe our ultimate purpose is in fact to become like our Heavenly Father, and like Jesus, I don't believe I would be a thief in so doing. My Heavenly Father will give me what He will give me.

If any religion is being honest, it cannot say what specifically we will do in Heaven.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2008, 08:10 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,089,868 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Let me be clear. WE THE MEMBERS OF THE LDS FAITH DO NOT THINK ABOUT OTHER CHURCHES!!! WE ARE TOO BUSY TAKING CARE OF BUSINESS IN OUR OWN CHURCH!!! Hopefully, that was sufficiently clear.




He is God the Father



He's contestant number 4, and the Son of God the Father.



He was created by God the Father in spirit form and eventually was born into mortality through Mary.



We were in the premortal existence with God the Father.



He is mortal and being tested by God the Father.



Salvation is to enjoy eternity in the company of God the Father and futher His work.
Typical Mormon evasion. Please agree or disagree with the writings of YOUR own leaders. Was Jesus procreated through sexual relations between Mary and heavenly Father?

Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2008, 08:16 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,141,502 times
Reputation: 1306
Doctrine & Covenants is not considered canon or doctrine?

In D&C 132:19,20 this is what it does say about godhood:
"They shall pass by the angels"
"which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things"
"which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever."
"they have no end"
"therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting "
"then shall they be above all"
"all things are subject unto them"
"they have all power"
"the angels are subject unto them"

this much to me seems clear (if not mistaken)
1. some of the attributes of the title of god are used
A. glory in all things
B. everlasting to everlasting
C. all power
D. be above all
E. glory shall be a fulness forever and ever.
F. Then shall they be gods [plural]
G. to their exaltation

You are correct in that the specifics are not known, but the description of a person[s] is clear enough to understand, correct?

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-31-2008 at 09:20 PM.. Reason: editing
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2008, 09:04 PM
 
1,804 posts, read 6,990,243 times
Reputation: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Typical Mormon evasion. Please agree or disagree with the writings of YOUR own leaders. Was Jesus procreated through sexual relations between Mary and heavenly Father?

Preterist
Your problem, Preterist, is you know the answer you want, and you are determined to keep asking questions until you get the answer you want. You seek to "catch something" to hang your case on. Not unlike the Pharisees of Jesus' time.

Luke 11:53-54
53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:

54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.


Now as for your question. None of us know exactly the physical mechanism by which Mary conceived. But I don't think it was sexual relations in the human sense. Just as humans can be conceived today through non-sexual means such as IVF, how much more likely is it that God could cause a physical conception in Mary without intercourse? Direct enough for you?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2008, 11:30 PM
 
2,946 posts, read 4,869,080 times
Reputation: 1610
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcats View Post
Your problem, Preterist, is you know the answer you want, and you are determined to keep asking questions until you get the answer you want. You seek to "catch something" to hang your case on. Not unlike the Pharisees of Jesus' time.
I`m not mormon but I agree with cool
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2008, 11:38 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,235,316 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Doctrine & Covenants is not considered canon or doctrine?

In D&C 132:19,20 this is what it does say about godhood:
"They shall pass by the angels"
"which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things"
"which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever."
"they have no end"
"therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting "
"then shall they be above all"
"all things are subject unto them"
"they have all power"
"the angels are subject unto them"

You are correct in that the specifics are not known, but the description of a person[s] is clear enough to understand, correct?
Let me walk you through this scripture:

“They shall pass by the angels, which are set there.”

Angels guard the entrance to the Celestial Kingdom and those entering will pass the angels to receive exaltation and glory.

“which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.”

Neither fullness nor seeds is defined. It may or may not mean the same powers as our Heavenly Father to include creating spirit children. It may also mean a lesser power and overseeing the spirit children of Heavenly Father. It is accepted that at a minimum, the family unit as established here will continue for eternity. In other words, our own seeds will continue. This is why families are sealed for eternity in our Temples.

I am sure you understand that “everlasting to everlasting” means eternal.

“Then shall they be above all” means they will be above all those who do not receive Exaltation. There are lesser degrees of glory in God’s Kingdom. It’s what Jesus meant when He said “there are many mansions in my Father’s Kingdom.” “Above all” does not mean above God the Father or Jesus.

“All things are subject unto them.” This means all things, such as resurrected beings, who do not receive Exaltation, and the elements will be subject to those who are exalted. It does not mean God the Father or Jesus are subject unto them.

“They have all” power over the elements and those in lesser kingdoms, but do not have all power over God the Father or Jesus. You might also refer to Matt. 25: 21. “His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”

Unlike most Protestant and Catholic beliefs, the LDS Church does not believe angles are a separate class of being created to serve God the Father. Angles are resurrected beings who were worthy of Celestial Glory, but not Exaltation; therefore, they are subject to those who are exalted.

Next, this section deals with the marriage covenant and not what I was talking about. I was referring to Joseph’s statement regarding God the Father was once a man and we too can be like God. I don’t know that God was once a man and this is not Canon.

Finally, go back and read section 132. You will find that God is a title, not a name of anyone specific. I am sure you are aware that Christ is also a title. God’s are those who are exalted, but there is no clear cut explanation beyond that point.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:43 AM.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top