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At no time did the Roman Catholic Church ever have its hands on all of the New Testament manuscripts which have been translated into many different languages. Not just Latin. There is no way that the Roman Catholic Church which didn't even really come into it's own, so to speak, until around the 6th century A.D. could have 'tampered' with every single manuscript.
Again, Hebrews 1:6 which quotes Psalm 97:7 (in the Septuagint) as well as Deut. 32:43, also in the Septuagint, refers to the angels worshiping Jesus who is God the Son.
Jesus was not in 'hell' for three days witnessing to unsaved members of the human race. It was probably after His resurrection that He went to Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) and made a proclamation to the group of fallen angels who are currently imprisoned there. Compare 2 Peter 2:4 with 1 Peter 3:19-20. Jesus went to Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) and made a proclamation to the spirits now imprisoned there who disobeyed God in the days of Noah (1 Peter 3:19-20). This refers back to the Genesis 6 account of the sons of God (a reference to the angels) who did not keep their first estate (Jude 1:6) and are now being kept in chains of darkness (in Tartarus) until the day of their judgment.
The only way you can hold on to your beliefs is by maintaining that the Roman Catholic church doctored all the New Testament manuscript by inserting Trinity doctrine. And such was not the case.
You believe what you want. I am not going to keep going back and forth on the issue. Your constant refrain that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true teachers and all others are false teachers smacks of a cult mentality. But if that's what floats your boat . . .
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Peter and Jude were referring to the Psalms, not the book of Enoch.
In other words, it was a reference to men - not angelic beings.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
I never said anything about the book of Enoch. Peter and Jude were referring to the Genesis 6 account regarding the flood as is clearly stated in the two passages of Peter. In Genesis 6 a reference is made to 'the sons of God.' In the Old Testament 'sons of God' is a reference to angelic beings. Not men. That this is true simply refer to Job 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7. Job 38:7 is particularly clear that the phrase 'sons of God' is a reference to angelic beings as it speaks of the sons of God shouting for joy when God created the earth. The human race hadn't been created yet.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19] in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20] who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Jude 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Psalms 107:10-11 Some sat in darkness and the deepest gloom; prisoners suffering in iron chains.
For they had rebelled against the words of God, and despised his counsel.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Jerwade, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Peter 2:4-5, and Jude 1:6 do not refer to Psalm 107:10-11. As stated in Psalm 107:13-14 those being referred to are said to have been saved and brought from out of their darkness and the shadow of death.
The angels which are being referred to in 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Peter 2:4-5, and Jude 1:6 are said to be even now in chains of etermal darkness in Tartarus, reserved for judgment.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary says that according to the Jewish Targum, Psalms 107:10-14 refers to King Zedekiah and the nobles of Judah in exile in Babylon. That this passage refers to the children of Israel while captive in Babylon is also the opinion expressed in 'Barnes' Notes on the Bible.'
You can't just pull verses out of context and try to apply them to other passages to which they have no connection.
At any rate, this is getting off the topic of the thread. I only brought up these passages to refute Kjw47's claim that Jesus was in 'hell' for three days (post #115) though he claims it was symbolism. In post #130 he claims that Jesus was simply in the grave for three days. While with regard to Jesus' body that is true, it is not true of His soul which was in Paradise for those three days.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
Although I can appreciate your enthusiasm, they are connected - it’s just that you do not see it.
2Peter 2:4 … for if God did not spare angels (messengers) when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment.
Jude 1:6 And the angels (messengers) who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
Psalms 107:10-12 …some sat in darkness and the deepest gloom, prisoners suffering in iron chains, for they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High. So he subjected them to bitter labor; they stumbled, and there was no one to help.
What you consider as being eternal or your concept of hell has nothing to do with it.
Apparently, the "wandering stars" are those who have lost their way in the wilderness of deception.
Jude 1:5-6 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though you once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels (messengers) that kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Psalm 107:10-12 is not connected with the verses I posted. Peter and Jude were not referring to that Psalm. You've been shown that. And the only connection that Jude 1:5 has with Jude 1:6 is that they are two of three separate examples being given by Jude of God's judgment. The first example is God's judgment on Israel after bringing them out of Egypt (v.5) The Third is God's judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities (v.7).
But the second example (v.6) is God's judgment on fallen angels. As stated in the Expositor's Bible Commentary;
The second example is of the fallen angels. The most likely reference here is to the angels (''sons of God,'' cf. Gen 6:4; Job 1:6; 2:1) who came to earth and mingled with women. This interpretation is expounded in the pseudepigraphical Book of Enoch (7; 9.8; 10.11; 12.4), from which Jude quotes in v.14, and is common in the intertestamental literature and the early church fathers (e.g., Justin Apology 2:5). These angels ''did not keep their positions of authority'' (tēn heautōn archēn). The use of the word archē for ''rule,'' ''dominion,'' or ''sphere'' is uncommon but appears to be so intended here (cf. BAG, p. 112). The implication it that God assigned angels stipulated responsibilities (archē, ''dominion'') and a set place (oikētērion). But because of their rebellion, God has kept or reserved (tētērēken ---perfect tense) these fallen angels in darkness and in eternal chains awaiting final judgment. Apparently some fallen angels are in bondage while others are unbound and active among mankind as demons.
Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol. 12, p. 390
Justin Martyr's comment (referred to in the commentary above can be read in his 'SECOND APOLOGY' in CHAPTER V -- HOW THE ANGELS TRANSGRESSED..
The reason you reject the fact that 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Peter 2:4-5, and Jude 1:6 are referring to fallen angels is that you don't believe in fallen angels. And so to you they must be referring to men.
I'm sure this post was a waste of time. But perhaps someone might get something out of it. At any rate, this is all I am going to say about the matter.
Psalm 107:10-12 is not connected with the verses I posted. Peter and Jude were not referring to that Psalm. You've been shown that. And the only connection that Jude 1:5 has with Jude 1:6 is that they are two of three separate examples being given by Jude of God's judgment. The first example is God's judgment on Israel after bringing them out of Egypt (v.5) The Third is God's judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities (v.7).
But the second example (v.6) is God's judgment on fallen angels. As stated in the Expositor's Bible Commentary;
The second example is of the fallen angels. The most likely reference here is to the angels (''sons of God,'' cf. Gen 6:4; Job 1:6; 2:1) who came to earth and mingled with women. This interpretation is expounded in the pseudepigraphical Book of Enoch (7; 9.8; 10.11; 12.4), from which Jude quotes in v.14, and is common in the intertestamental literature and the early church fathers (e.g., Justin Apology 2:5). These angels ''did not keep their positions of authority'' (tēn heautōn archēn). The use of the word archē for ''rule,'' ''dominion,'' or ''sphere'' is uncommon but appears to be so intended here (cf. BAG, p. 112). The implication it that God assigned angels stipulated responsibilities (archē, ''dominion'') and a set place (oikētērion). But because of their rebellion, God has kept or reserved (tētērēken ---perfect tense) these fallen angels in darkness and in eternal chains awaiting final judgment. Apparently some fallen angels are in bondage while others are unbound and active among mankind as demons.
Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol. 12, p. 390
Justin Martyr's comment (referred to in the commentary above can be read in his 'SECOND APOLOGY' in CHAPTER V -- HOW THE ANGELS TRANSGRESSED..
The reason you reject the fact that 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Peter 2:4-5, and Jude 1:6 are referring to fallen angels is that you don't believe in fallen angels. And so to you they must be referring to men.
I'm sure this post was a waste of time. But perhaps someone might get something out of it. At any rate, this is all I am going to say about the matter.
So, Mike, a few did not get caught, or managed to escaped Alcatraz? And are still wreaking havoc on mankind?
If verses 5 and 7 are dealing with men, or a segment of humanity. Then, verse six is not an exception.
Now, given the fact that they are "chained in darkness," might that not mean there is no consciousness?
In other words, they are held in the grave – not some bottomless "infernal pit" called Hell.
But I am sure that you have been indoctrinated with the theology of Satan, and his demons.
Therefore, it would be a waste of energy for anyone to attempt to re-educate you at this time.
Last edited by Jerwade; 09-05-2015 at 01:37 AM..
Reason: Make that a waste of energy.
- Jesus said in John 14:12 - 'I go to My Father'.
- Jesus told Mary not to touch Him for He had not ascended to the Father;
I am ascending to the Father' - John 20:17
- No One But Jesus Of Their Own Accord Has Ascended Into Heaven. -
In the resurrection of the just and the unjust;
those who hear Jesus voice will come forth. - John 5:28,29
And those who are just will ascend into heaven with Jesus.
No one can ascends into heaven of their own will. But Jesus.
Simply that Christ is in Heaven and He will take us to be were He is.
Interesting. Christ ascended to the right hand of God. Do you think we all will ascend to the right hand of God? The Bible doesn't say we are going to Heaven.
As I'm sure you already know and are just testing the poster, this is one of those weird translations from 1 Peter that much of mainstream Christianity believes. It's where Jesus (through Noah) preached to the antediluvians at the time Noah was building the ark. These people who were 'in the prison house of sin', i.e. those who were disobedient, are (obviously) NOW dead but WERE alive when Jesus (through Noah's ministry) preached to them. However, they didn't listen and turn from their evil ways and so were destroyed. Needless to say, that's an explanation in a tiny nutshell. From this passage of scripture mainstream Christianity erroneously teaches that Jesus preached to the dead in prison (hell?) during the time He spent between crucifixion and resurrection. The mind boggles as to how theologians can get something SO wrong! It really does bring into question as to how accurate they are with regard to others scriptures . . .
Believers when absent from the body (temporary tent) we will be present with the Lord..........
2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Believers when absent from the body (temporary tent) we will be present with the Lord..........
Uhhh...No...
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2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
- Elijah & Moses did not Ascend into heaven; they were Taken into heaven.
Elijah wrote a letter to the king, 10 years after the chariot event occurred( 2Chron 21:12-15). He did not go to the dwelling place of God( Heaven) he went into our atmosphere to another part of the earth( retired) Elisha took over at that point. Not one mortal ever entered the dwelling place of God prior to Jesus from earth.
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