U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-28-2015, 07:54 AM
 
4,406 posts, read 4,060,310 times
Reputation: 3543

Advertisements

John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Acts 2:34-35 (NKJV)

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.



Jesus also said no one has ever ascend to heaven but him, so why do we think the moment we die, we go directly to heaven or hell?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-28-2015, 09:03 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,100 posts, read 573,771 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Acts 2:34-35 (NKJV)
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.


Jesus also said no one has ever ascend to heaven but him, so why do we think the moment we die, we go directly to heaven or hell?
Correction: at the time Jesus said that, He was saying that He had come down from Heaven; thus He Who is in Heaven is testifying to His deity.

But to answer your questions as He enables me: where did the O.T. saints go when Jesus was on earth?

Jesus spoke of the beggar Lazarus whom had died and was in Abraham's bosom and told the fate of the rich man in hell that could see Abraham and Lazarus in a nice place across that great chasm from hell. So that means Abraham's bosom was beneathe the earth, but not in hell.

That means all those that have died befoire Christ's ascension to Heaven goes to Abraham's bosom; beneathe the earth, but not in hell. Proof of that can be seen when King Saul consulted a medium to "call up" the spirit of the prophet Samuel.

1 Samuel 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? .....

So that is why the O.T. saints like David, were not in Heaven yet. This is where they had been when Jesus was on earth before His resurrection.

When Jesus told the thief on the cross that today he will be with Him in Paradise, He descended first after His death to preach to those in prisons before His resurrection three days later. So basically, Abraham's bosom was and is Paradise for the thief to be with Him that day in Paradise.

God can do this because of His words.

Proverbs 30:4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient,

Since His death was necessary so that He might bring us to God, then the faith of the O.T. saints were awarded His visit in Abraham's bosom so that they can believe and be saved.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

So after His resurrection, He led the captive from captivity:

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So where is Paradise now since Jesus had to ascend to Heaven to prepare the way for us in bringing us to God?

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

And so because Jesus is in Heaven as Paul was talking about the apostle John per how the book of Revelation was written, He is how Paradise is now in Heaven as those that die in Christ shall be present with the Lord in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Not every believer will be ready for the Bridegroom whe He comes; many will have gone astray, fallen away from the faith or sowed to the flesh in reaping corruption, in which case, they will be left behind unless they repent by trusting Jesus to save them from their sins & dead works that deny Him to no longer live in them, leaning on Him as their Good Shepherd by His grace & by His help to help them to abide in Him and His words as kept in the KJV Bible by those that loved Him & His words.

Those left behind will suffer the fire coming on the earth & the coming great tribulation, but they will be received later on as vessels unto dishonour in His House for not looking to Him for help in departing from iniquity in getting ready to go before the Bridegroom comes.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.... He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2015, 09:06 AM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,674,400 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Acts 2:34-35 (NKJV)

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.



Jesus also said no one has ever ascend to heaven but him, so why do we think the moment we die, we go directly to heaven or hell?
At the time Jesus said it, it was true. No one was admitted into heaven until Jesus went to the cross and was resurrected, ascended, and seated at the right hand of the Father. Up until that time everyone went to Sheol. Believers went to Abraham's Bosom, and unbelievers went to the torment's section. At the moment that Jesus died, the curtain in the temple was torn by God Himself from top to bottom. This signified the removal of the barrier between man and God and that man was now allowed to enter into the true Holy of holies in heaven.

This is why Paul was able to say that he'd rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). And this is why in Revelation 6:9-11 believers are seen in heaven.

The soul does not cease to exist when the body dies, but separates from it. And that is what physical death is - the separation of the soul from the body. Jesus made it clear that the soul continues on after the death of the body (Matthew 10:28). And Peter spoke of his impending death as a laying aside of his dwelling and a departure (2 Peter 1:13-15).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2015, 11:03 AM
 
17,521 posts, read 10,605,246 times
Reputation: 8431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
At the time Jesus said it, it was true. No one was admitted into heaven until Jesus went to the cross and was resurrected, ascended, and seated at the right hand of the Father. Up until that time everyone went to Sheol. Believers went to Abraham's Bosom, and unbelievers went to the torment's section. At the moment that Jesus died, the curtain in the temple was torn by God Himself from top to bottom. This signified the removal of the barrier between man and God and that man was now allowed to enter into the true Holy of holies in heaven.

This is why Paul was able to say that he'd rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). And this is why in Revelation 6:9-11 believers are seen in heaven.

The soul does not cease to exist when the body dies, but separates from it. And that is what physical death is - the separation of the soul from the body. Jesus made it clear that the soul continues on after the death of the body (Matthew 10:28). And Peter spoke of his impending death as a laying aside of his dwelling and a departure (2 Peter 1:13-15).
Paul also said the resurrection was a future event not one that happened at that time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2015, 11:15 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 23,895,889 times
Reputation: 7812
If no one ascended to heaven, where did Elijah and Moses come from when they appeared with Christ?

Just then and where did Enoch go?

Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away

Genesis 5:24

All the other patriarchs DIED, Enoch we re told WAS NO MORE.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2015, 11:39 AM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,674,400 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Paul also said the resurrection was a future event not one that happened at that time.
The resurrection is indeed a future event at which time the soul will be reunited with the body. In the meantime the soul of the believer goes to heaven and the soul of the unbeliever goes to the torments side of hades.

Last edited by Mike555; 08-28-2015 at 11:48 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2015, 11:42 AM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,674,400 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
If no one ascended to heaven, where did Elijah and Moses come from when they appeared with Christ?

Just then and where did Enoch go?

Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away

Genesis 5:24

All the other patriarchs DIED, Enoch we re told WAS NO MORE.
Before the cross believers went to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) which at that time was in Sheol/Hades.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2015, 12:43 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,015,968 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Acts 2:34-35 (NKJV)

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.



Jesus also said no one has ever ascend to heaven but him, so why do we think the moment we die, we go directly to heaven or hell?
There are different aspects/places of Heaven. The highest of Heaven is the Throne Room of God from which Christ came and from which He ministered from, which no one has done before or since. Then there is Paradise the Third Heaven and then of coarse there is the Kingdom of Heaven within each believer and each receives a foretaste of the Resurrection and of the Powers of the New Creation that is coming. Yes, Christ's body was of this earth but His Spirit was of and ministered from the Throne Room's recourses.


One will be resurrected to Paradise if one dies before Christ's return or if he or she is alive at that time then they will be resurrected directly to the Throne Room of God. It is written, 1THESS 4:16-17 "For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven [the Throne Room/uttermost part of Heaven] with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Even though we see that those who have gone on before us are "up there" yet we see that they will rise yet again. Where? To the Throne Room where they will be trained to rule the new heaven and new earth.


MK 13:27 "And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of Heaven."

Last edited by garya123; 08-28-2015 at 01:02 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2015, 12:57 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,164,770 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Before the cross believers went to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) which at that time was in Sheol/Hades.
For those reading the above, the only response needed is Acts 20:30
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2015, 01:47 PM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,674,400 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Before the cross believers went to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) which at that time was in Sheol/Hades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
For those reading the above, the only response needed is Acts 20:30
Acts 20:30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
The rude and uncalled for implication being of course that I'm distorting the truth in order to draw disciples after me. However what I said is in accordance with Luke 16:19-31.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top