Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
For liberal, because it reallt wouldn't make a difference to their understanding and to the consevative pure defensiveness in the face of what is at best speculation.
For liberal, because it reallt wouldn't make a difference to their understanding and to the consevative pure defensiveness in the face of what is at best speculation.
Is there anything on this subject that is not met with pure defensiveness by any fundamentalist who is determined not to consider any perspective other than the one they already hold? Those who are willing to do so would not be angered by such speculation.
I don't ignore anything, I have converted from one religion to the other because I admit what I read. What is trying to be insinuated is silly.....Again, it would only fly in the Christianity forum because of the fact that it is so silly that no debate would be needed amongst people in Judaism, it is a non issue, it simply did not happen, and there is nothing to insinuate it happening.
I don't mind if people want to believe what they want to believe, it's just silly, and again, If I wanted to prove and show people in the bible transgressing the law, I have many ways to do that, but Jonathan and David is not one of them.....
If there was even a sliver of doubt, then I would consider it, but there is NOTHING there to insinuate anything, it doesn't exist, it is a non issue, and where Christians outside of Judaism may like to assume things, it is an impossibility for those in Judaism........I think I will start a thread in Judaism asking how silly it is on a scale from one to ten, and maybe somebody there can make Gentiles understand how silly it is.
Have you EVER read the Talmud? It's nothing but contrary conjecture by rabbis on different sides of issues. It's one of the things I admire about Jews----their ability to put different points of view side by side and let people argue the points.
Quote:
The Oral Law is a legal commentary on the Torah, explaining how its commandments are to be carried out. Common sense suggests that some sort of oral tradition was always needed to accompany the Written Law, because the Torah alone, even with its 613 commandments, is an insufficient guide to Jewish life. For example, the fourth of the Ten Commandments, ordains, "Remember the Sabbath day to make it holy" (Exodus 20:8). From the Sabbath's inclusion in the Ten Commandments, it is clear that the Torah regards it as an important holiday. Yet when one looks for the specific biblical laws regulating how to observe the day, one finds only injunctions against lighting a fire, going away from one's dwelling, cutting down a tree, plowing and harvesting. Would merely refraining from these few activities fulfill the biblical command to make the Sabbath holy? Indeed, the Sabbath rituals that are most commonly associated with holiness-lighting of candles, reciting the kiddush, and the reading of the weekly Torah portion are found not in the Torah, but in the Oral Law.
-----------
During the centuries following Rabbi Judah's editing of the Mishna, it was studied exhaustively by generation after generation of rabbis. Eventually, some of these rabbis wrote down their discussions and commentaries on the Mishna's laws in a series of books known as the Talmud. The rabbis of Palestine edited their discussions of the Mishna about the year 400: Their work became known as the Palestinian Talmud (in Hebrew, Talmud Yerushalmi, which literally means "Jerusalem Talmud").
More than a century later, some of the leading Babylonian rabbis compiled another editing of the discussions on the Mishna. By then, these deliberations had been going on some three hundred years. The Babylon edition was far more extensive than its Palestinian counterpart, so that the Babylonian Talmud (Talmud Bavli) became the most authoritative compilation of the Oral Law. When people speak of studying "the Talmud," they almost invariably mean the Bavli rather than the Yerushalmi.
The Talmud's discussions are recorded in a consistent format. A law from the Mishna is cited, which is followed by rabbinic deliberations on its meaning. The Mishna and the rabbinic discussions (known as the Gemara) comprise the Talmud, although in Jewish life the terms Gemara and Talmud usually are used interchangeably.
One rabbi in a roundtable of 27 Jewish scholars said this:
Quote:
Asher Lopatin, Orthodox, Yeshivat Chovevei Torah Rabbinical School: The Talmud teaches us that argument, discussion, disagreement and diverse viewpoints are critical if Torah is to take root and grow in our lives. The Talmud has confidence that Torah is resilient and can stand up to questioning. In fact, the Talmud demonstrates that the only way to figure out what Torah asks of us may be to argue it out. No one is immune to being questioned; the most honored and knowledgeable rabbis of the Talmud are pushed to justify their positions, and those who want to limit the conversation are rebuked.
Read more: https://forward.com/opinion/spiritua...om-the-talmud/
Further, there is disagreement among rabbis about the relationship of David and Jonathan:
Quote:
Conservative commentators reject anything but a platonic interpretation, arguing that the chosen king of Judah could not conceivably have loved Jonathan physically, since homosexuality was already banned by Jewish Law.
This argument doesn’t seem to hold. Various verses in the Book of Kings and elsewhere in the Bible seem to indicate that not only was homosexuality tolerated during the First Temple period — it was typical cultic behavior among the ancient Israelites at the time.
----------- The sentence in 2 Deuteronomy 23:17 is traditionally translated as: “There shall be no wh*r*s of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel”. However, the translation is not accurate. The words rendered as “ wh*r*s” and “sodomite” are the female and male versions of the Hebrew word for sacred prostitute (qedesha and qedosh).
Further there is Jewish oral law that says one is not responsible for BEING gay:
Quote:
The halakhic (legal) term ahnoos refers to someone who, though commanded to do something, does not really have a choice in the matter. In Judaism, one is only responsible for religious obligations that one can freely choose to fulfill. Thus some Jewish authorities have argued that since homosexuality is not chosen, its expression cannot be forbidden.
So don't tell me you are a Jew nor a Christian regarding this. There are Christian theologians and Jewish rabbis with opposing views---all based in interpretation of Scripture.
An honest person cannot be certain!!!
Last edited by Wardendresden; 09-30-2018 at 09:34 PM..
The David and Jonathan debate and Hanni's absolute insistence that their's could not have been a homosexual union, citing the Talmud or the Torah as his authority, brought to mind a Jewish person who frequented a Christian Forum that I formerly participated on who used the below quote as his common signature:
"The Torah is true, and some of it may even have happened." -- Rabbi William Gershon
Yes, I speak for people who believe all the bible, people who know the bible because they accept and love the bible. They can only know the bible when they love the bible and follow in the religion. Christians don't believe in most of the bible and most Christians don't keep the religion of the bible. Most Christians don't even know the Sabbaths and feasts of the bible or the traditions and rituals or the language of idioms.
Because they don't know the religion they speak of, I can't really take them serious, they are all hostile witnesses lol.
For Christians who don't know anything about the 7 feasts of the bible and Revelation being written of the fall feasts, they don't know Revelation and they don't know that you cannot understand Revelation without the help of the Oral Torah.
What I said is true, but I don't mind if people not in my religion want to believe something else.
Have you EVER read the Talmud? It's nothing but contrary conjecture by rabbis on different sides of issues. It's one of the things I admire about Jews----their ability to put different points of view side by side and let people argue the points.
So don't tell me you are a Jew nor a Christian regarding this. There are Christian theologians and Jewish rabbis with opposing views---all based in interpretation of Scripture.
An honest person cannot be certain!!!
It doesn't matter in the least what you think of the Oral Torah, what matters is that if the author was meant to say that David proclaimed himself to be a Homosexual, it would be all over the Talmud no matter what you think of it. It would have been discussed in Samuel, it would be discussed in the psalms and in the New Testament, and it isn't.,
It doesn't matter in the least what you think of the Oral Torah, what matters is that if the author was meant to say that David proclaimed himself to be a Homosexual, it would be all over the Talmud no matter what you think of it. It would have been discussed in Samuel, it would be discussed in the psalms and in the New Testament, and it isn't.,
Like this is just your opinion, Dude!!!
And neither does it matter in the least what YOU think of the Torah either. Your decision to select what you wish to believe simply ignores the history of the subject.
And I think if the Bible were MEANT to be clear, it would be. It isn't, that's why there are 30,000 denominations of Christians and at least seven separate sects of Jews. That makes your "certainty" absurd and self-serving---just like it does for Christian fundamentalists.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
