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LOL, No, The author never intended it to be viewed as having anything to do with sex, and had that intent been purposely made, it would have been dealt with or the admission completely omitted but it is TRUE that it wasn't meant to be taken as sex because of the fact that all of it would have to be dealt with, it would have been dealt with because it could not go unspoken. It just could not happen, and again, if that was the intent of the author, NONE OF US would be in denial because it would have been common knowledge where it has never even been considered because no true bible scholar would even look at it, you may as well be trying to convince me that there are people living on the dark side of the moon, there is no logic, no common sense that the author meant sex, if he had, there would be no debate.....
Why does it always have to be connected with the act of sex in lieu of the emotional feelings themselves?
I am not self serving, I believe the truth no matter where that truth leads, I simply believe that what you are talking about is impossible, it is just as impossible as MANY things I hear Christians say. Christians spend their day in here proving how Jesus couldn't have possibly been the Messiah because they don't know how Judaism works. You put me in a room with my peers of people who know the religion they are speaking of, and they are also going to say it's impossible, there is no bias, it just isn't possible that the author intended homosexuality.....Christians don't have any rules that apply to them, they can say impossible things all day and they DO. There is no guidelines to Christianity and the religion of Jesus is Judaism, you can't make up things in Judaism, you can't twist the words and get away with it because there are rules, but there are no rules in Christianity, they can make up things all day that don't make any sense. After they prove to every Jew how Jesus couldn't be the Messiah, they don't even know what they have just done........
I am not bias, and I am extremely opened minded, I am just speaking as a person who knows the framework of Judaism and how it works.....The author could not have intended Homosexuality unless the Oral Torah covered it, and if it is not covered as a serious debate in the Oral Torah, it's because it is a non issue and nobody ever took that scripture to mean homosexuality........
This is not MY OPINION, it is what it is, Christians proving that Jesus could not have been the Messiah is not my opinion, it is because they don't know what they are saying because they are speaking of a people and a religion they don't know or practice.
Judaism is not Christianity and Christians have no idea how Judaism works, and they have no clue about all the rules of Messiah when they show Jesus to be a false prophet, a pagan and a lawless Jew. Christians show Paul to be a lawless two faced coward who is a pagan and a false prophet and then they don't understand what the implications are. Christians have no limits, they can take all the rules and throw them out the window as they always do, and here in the Christian forum, anyone can make any kind of impossible claim and even get other people to believe them because none of them know the rules of Judaism and how Judaism works with the people who practice Judaism.....
It is simply impossible for the author to have intended Homosexuality, that's all. Again, it isn't my opinion, it is simply the obvious truth.
It' s obvious you have no idea how Judaism works either. I provided three different Jewish rabbinical sources that disagree with your view about Jonathan and David----and still you persist.
It' s obvious you have no idea how Judaism works either. I provided three different Jewish rabbinical sources that disagree with your view about Jonathan and David----and still you persist.
THAT is a fundamentalist, not a truth seeker.
Yeah?
I must have missed that, my bad, I will go back and look. I skimmed over it thinking it had nothing to do with the subject, but I will give it a look although there isn't much of a chance of me agreeing.....You mean you posted something from the Oral Torah that discusses the relationship of Jonathon and David, or that you posted modern stuff?
I must have missed that, my bad, I will go back and look. I skimmed over it thinking it had nothing to do with the subject, but I will give it a look although there isn't much of a chance of me agreeing.....You mean you posted something from the Oral Torah that discusses the relationship of Jonathon and David, or that you posted modern stuff?
Read the links if you wish to learn. I had more, but settled for three.
It’s just an old story to me, Hanni. And if Jonathan was attracted to David or David was attracted to Jonathan, it’s still just a story. Maybe a story based on real people, maybe not. Either way, it’s a story that has been meaningful to me in various ways. Right at this moment in my life, it is meaningful to me that I am able to think about it, having the impression that one or both characters were sexually attracted to each other, and I find their relationship and care for each other equally as beautiful as if they weren’t. A decade ago I couldn’t have said that. That tells me some of the damage done to my spirit by allowing fundamentalist doctrines to shape my worldview and how I thought about people, is beginning to heal.
This made my throat tighten a bit. I am happy for you that you are in that place, Pleroo.
It’s just an old story to me, Hanni. And if Jonathan was attracted to David or David was attracted to Jonathan, it’s still just a story. Maybe a story based on real people, maybe not. Either way, it’s a story that has been meaningful to me in various ways. Right at this moment in my life, it is meaningful to me that I am able to think about it, having the impression that one or both characters were sexually attracted to each other, and I find their relationship and care for each other equally as beautiful as if they weren’t. A decade ago I couldn’t have said that. That tells me some of the damage done to my spirit by allowing fundamentalist doctrines to shape my worldview and how I thought about people, is beginning to heal.
Have you EVER read the Talmud? It's nothing but contrary conjecture by rabbis on different sides of issues. It's one of the things I admire about Jews----their ability to put different points of view side by side and let people argue the points.
So don't tell me you are a Jew nor a Christian regarding this. There are Christian theologians and Jewish rabbis with opposing views---all based in interpretation of Scripture.
An honest person cannot be certain!!!
I am honest, what is written here does nothing for me, It would have to be dealt with in the bible, and it would have been dealt with in the Talmud 2000 years ago, all I can make of this is what modern people said. I am only looking at the intent of the author, and I don't see him purposely showing sex of any kind because nobody considered it to be about sex, that's all. When Christians look back and assume what is tolerated, MOST ALL CHRISTIANS don't seem to know the difference between Israel and Judah, and what may happen in Israel is no holes barred, anything goes...I am CERTAIN that Homosexuality may have been completely accepted in the kingdom of Israel who were not Jews, they had no law, and because they turned to Paganism, homosexuality was not only tolerated but even promoted in some Pagan beliefs...
Christians look at Israel and Judah as if they were the same people when they were in fact, not the same people. They were two separate people with two separate religions where one religion is made out of jealousy and hate for the people of Judah and Judaism....
The people of Israel did not walk in Judaism, they walked in direct contradiction to Judaism, and they were never Jews. They had their own holy cities and their own appointed priests where they invented their own worship system that Christians follow today in lawlessness just like the Israelites, but the Israelites were never Jews, and they were completely two different nations, two different kingdoms of one kingdom fighting the other. The kingdom of Israel kept allying with Egypt and Assyria to fight against the kingdom of Judah......
Anything can be assumed in Israel, but that isn't so in Judah, just saying, to assume what was tolerated by the king and people of Israel has nothing to do with the people of Judah, the people of Judah would not have accepted David under those conditions, and the prophets of the Lord would have prophesied over what David had done, and we would have seen the punishment.
This made my throat tighten a bit. I am happy for you that you are in that place, Pleroo.
She is always sweet aint she, ripened fruit.
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I am so pleased for you, Pleroo. 