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I easily could but you don't seem open to anything anyone says so, good luck!
Oh I'd love to see you do that...believe it or not, I'm open to alot of possibilities on this issue but I've yet to see anyone really defeat that point in an indisputable fashion and this comp out doesn't really help your case...so...good luck?
Oh I'd love to see you do that...believe it or not, I'm open to alot of possibilities on this issue but I've yet to see anyone really defeat that point in an indisputable fashion and this comp out doesn't really help your case...so...good luck?
Do you actually believe his point that they were destroyed due to disobedience and worshiping man-made gods? The Bible does not say that is the reason for their destruction. If you read my post again, you will see the reason. Romulus likes to make up his own reasons.
Do you actually believe his point that they were destroyed due to disobedience and worshiping man-made gods? The Bible does not say that is the reason for their destruction. If you read my post again, you will see the reason. Romulus likes to make up his own reasons.
I was focusing more on the second paragraph but since you mention it, I personally believe that the destruction of sodom was due to:
[SIZE=5]Ezekiel 16:49 New Intrnational Version[/SIZE]
"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
Or
Youngs literal:
49Lo, this hath been the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, Arrogancy, fulness of bread, and quiet ease, Have been to her and to her daughters, And the hand of the afflicted and needy She hath not strengthened.
and
Jude: 1:7
7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other (strange or "Angel") flesh, have been set before--an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
So therefore, The sin of Sodom is mostly injustice to the poor and whoredom with Angels or in general which doesn't neccessarily include homosexuality in todays context since back then it was primarly rape based or idolatry based (mostly with sumerians and canaanites worship practices. Not sure about Sodomites). I'm not sure where he's getting the Idolatry thing with Sodom aside from possible inferences though I haven't read back that far on this thread
Last edited by Jrhockney; 09-18-2015 at 03:05 PM..
Well, regardless of who said what and to whom it was said we DO know that not one of us is 'sinless', don't we? And, this is the point that is being made to those who so eagerly point the finger at others.
I was focusing more on the second paragraph but since you mention it, I personally believe that the destruction of sodom was due to:
[SIZE=5]Ezekiel 16:49 New Intrnational Version[/SIZE]
"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
Or
Youngs literal:
49Lo, this hath been the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, Arrogancy, fulness of bread, and quiet ease, Have been to her and to her daughters, And the hand of the afflicted and needy She hath not strengthened.
and
Jude: 1:7
7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other (strange or "Angel") flesh, have been set before--an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
So therefore, The sin of Sodom is mostly injustice to the poor and whoredom with Angels or in general which doesn't neccessarily include homosexuality in todays context since back then it was primarly rape based or idolatry based (mostly with sumerians and canaanites worship practices. Not sure about Sodomites). I'm not sure where he's getting the Idolatry thing with Sodom aside from possible inferences though I haven't read back that far on this thread
Concerning Jude 1:7, there are no ancient Greek texts where angelos (angel) is in that text.
Here is the Concordant Literal New Testament version:
Jud 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."
Men knowing men is homosexuality.
God would not destroy those cities due to not taking care of the poor or inhospitality.
Do you actually believe his point that they were destroyed due to disobedience and worshiping man-made gods? The Bible does not say that is the reason for their destruction. If you read my post again, you will see the reason. Romulus likes to make up his own reasons.
I do not make up my own reasons, Eusebius. I'm coming at this topic with logic as well as with a fair amount of study under my belt. I like to think that I'm open to discussing other interpretations of scriptures such as those pertaining to this particular subject. So far, however, I haven't heard anything from the mainstream Church in general over the years other than a blanket condemnation of homosexuality. I don't believe for one second that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality, rampant or otherwise. I have no personal agenda, i.e. I'm not gay, except to try to resolve this issue once and for all and to expose the lies of the evangelical Church regarding THEIR interpretation of the reason behind God's having destroyed S&G.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney
I was focusing more on the second paragraph but since you mention it, I personally believe that the destruction of sodom was due to:
[SIZE=5]Ezekiel 16:49 New Intrnational Version[/SIZE]
"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
Or
Youngs literal:
49Lo, this hath been the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, Arrogancy, fulness of bread, and quiet ease, Have been to her and to her daughters, And the hand of the afflicted and needy She hath not strengthened.
and
Jude: 1:7
7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other (strange or "Angel") flesh, have been set before--an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
So therefore, The sin of Sodom is mostly injustice to the poor and whoredom with Angels or in general which doesn't neccessarily include homosexuality in todays context since back then it was primarly rape based or idolatry based (mostly with sumerians and canaanites worship practices. Not sure about Sodomites). I'm not sure where he's getting the Idolatry thing with Sodom aside from possible inferences though I haven't read back that far on this thread
Ezekiel's explanation of "the arrogant, overfed and unconcerned, not helping the poor and needy" has already been addressed and also noted that homosexuality is nowhere mentioned. Jesus similarly references the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah with that of inhospitality. Again, no mention of homosexuality.
Then someone on this thread mentioned 'they committed abomination before me', also referred to by Ezekiel in his explanation of the destruction of S&G. And THAT is when I addressed and referenced 'abomination' as equating to 'idolatry'. You see, as soon as the word "abomination" is mentioned many Christians immediately equate that term to "homosexuality" and nothing other. This is how they've been conditioned over the years. What "I" did was to take that term as used by Ezekiel and apply it to other passages of scripture contained within the same book of Ezekiel and find common ground for its use. And, I did ...just the same as anyone else who can read can do. It's a bit lengthy but allow me to present Ezekiel 8:1-18:
1 And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord GOD fell there upon me.
2 Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber. I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.
5 Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.
6 He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations.
7 And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.
9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose
18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.
Is there any doubt that when Ezekiel states "and they committed abomination before me" that he's referring to Pagan idolatry?
As for "sodomite/s". That is a term that has been applied to homosexuals and it is yet again a demonstration of Christian ignorance pertaining to their own book. A "sodomite" was NOT a resident of Sodom. A "sodomite" was NOT a homosexual. A "sodomite" was a (sacred) shrine temple prostitute! Grab a Strong's Concordance and check it out for yourselves!
Christians might also be shocked to discover that the term "sodomy" is found nowhere in scripture! It's a man-made term equating to supposed 'homosexual activity' (similar 'heterosexual activity' is ignored) based on a misinterpretation of the Sodom story. And, THIS is why I initiated this thread.
Concerning Jude 1:7, there are no ancient Greek texts where angelos (angel) is in that text.
Here is the Concordant Literal New Testament version:
Jud 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."
Men knowing men is homosexuality.
God would not destroy those cities due to not taking care of the poor or inhospitality.
Where else does it say " God will judge sexually immoral people " besides Hebrew 13:4 ?
God will judge sexually immoral people ( from Greek word: porneia )
Concerning Jude 1:7, there are no ancient Greek texts where angelos (angel) is in that text.
Here is the Concordant Literal New Testament version:
Jud 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."
Men knowing men is homosexuality.
Where did you get "men laying with men" from those passages in Jude? And why are you highlighting Jude to add to the explanation already given by Ezekiel and Jesus for the demise of S&G? I know why, by the way. Ezekiel and Jesus imply nothing about homosexuality but with a little bit of underhandedness Jude COULD be made to reference 'homosexuality' to those already brainwashed with the notion. It's this kind of trickery used to condemn a group of people who had no say in their sexuality that present-day "Christianity" is becoming so despised ...even by other Christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
God would not destroy those cities due to not taking care of the poor or inhospitality.
Well, you'd best take that up with Ezekiel and Jesus who DID make those claims. Did Jesus and Ezekiel state these reasons or didn't they? Forget about Jude. Stick to Ezekiel and Jesus.
... but, their actions were SADISTIC in nature, where conformity is forced.
There is a huge difference!
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