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I'm encouraged that you implied Heaster 'believes' in demon possession. I read all the stuff in the 5 or 6 sectuon immediately referred, and it had all angels as being good, ...I'm not getting that, but one would have to read the rest of his website / book. I dismissed, or read a lot quicker some of latter sections, after reading that he believes Jesus is coming back to set up a physical kingdom of God on earth. Jesus is lord in a spiritual kingdom, not a physical one. He didn't set up a physical kingdom for the Jews the first time. And the truth is there is no reference to second anything in scripture, particularly, a return. People just don't want to die, so they invent kack and bull stories that they are going to be whisked up into the clouds. the second best is to scare people into their hierarchical institutions, with the hell / adversary doctrine so they can feel like they're getting somewhere, for God.
I was actually not aware of how many links there were at first there were FAR more links than 6. I actually printed all of it out but haven't gotten around to reading it. The first thing I'm interested in is the debate I really like debates, debates prevent straw man arguments!! I did Google him trying to find opinions about him but didn't find much other than links to his own stuff. I noticed as it was printing he had a lot of info on early church fathers I love that stuff. Like I said I haven't read it but as of now I think his stance that Satan/Devil is very interesting and seems like he has a good argument, but his stance on no evil spirits has me shaking my head I can't wait to read how he plans to defend that there are tons of references on them. You'll have to excuse my split personality I am not a Christian but sometimes I speak in terms of 'According to the Bible' implied. So according to the Bible I'd love to know how he'll back his claim of no evil spirits. But according to the Bible I find his Satan theory very interesting.
What's your family background, religion wise? I'm intrigued you find this specific subject so interesting, but appear to have no leanings, in terms of belief system.
Raised Roman Catholic. Other then my mom that meant absolutely nothing to anyone in my family. We had to go to church because she wanted to go. Church was so stupid, I think they said the same thing every time...a few kneels, sits, stands, then Awesome it's over time to go home!!! Became friends with what you would call a backslidden Christian. We drank a lot so that worked for me lol, I would often hammer him with objections, not in an antagonistic way but more of a 'Wait hold on...' type way. He was a very confrontational and confident guy that stuff never bothered him he'd talk all night about it if you kept asking him, he'd never have that 'Leave me alone' type attitude. I was always intrigued that he claimed that there were non-religious historians & archaeologists who have become believers PURELY as a result of their research.
Fast forward a few years later and I was always buying apolgetics, I was intrigued with people trying to make a historic case for the supernatural. I found a few arguments to be impressive, I'm talking maybe 10% of me thought it could be true and 90% thought the objections destroyed it...not exactly the faith of Job lol. So, with such a lopsided belief what kept me intrigued was that every other religion on Earth had absolutely 0% of it that swayed me to believing it was true, literally not even .001%. So I was always fascinated that there was a story line of the supernatural that would EVER have even a piece of me thinking that it might be true. Today I float at about hmm...30%. Everything that I found impressive revolves around the mind boggling things that history proves Jesus CONVINCED PEOPLE of. I love human psychology, nobody can convince people of what he convinced people of it's friggin baffling to human psychology (had he been just a human). Please don't ask me to explain I don't want to type 19 paragraphs lol.
And also, there is nothing that helps nudge me towards belief more than straw men arguments. I've been over so much technical research and if one more person tries to tell me that the gnostic gospels are the real ones, or that Jesus was preceded by other people who rose from the dead/was virgin born, etc, I'm gonna scream. The data crushes those accusations and I swear to the God that I don't quite believe in (lol) that the more people throw straw men arguments at me the more that I actually start believing in that 'Spiritually blind' crap...it drives me nuts because it IS NOT HARD RESEARCH to uncover how those fallacious those arguments are. Don't even get me started on people who say Jesus never existed.
Raised Roman Catholic. Other then my mom thatmeant absolutely nothing to anyone in my family. We had to go to church becauseshe wanted to go. Church was so stupid, I think they said the same thing everytime...a few kneels, sits, stands, then Awesome it's over time to go home!!!Became friends with what you would call a backslidden Christian. We drank a lotso that worked for me lol, I would often hammer him with objections, not in anantagonistic way but more of a 'Wait hold on...' type way. He was a veryconfrontational and confident guy that stuff never bothered him he'd talk allnight about it if you kept asking him, he'd never have that 'Leave me alone'type attitude. I was always intrigued that he claimed that there were non-religioushistorians & archaeologists who have become believers PURELY as a result oftheir research.
It’s interesting that your ‘backslidden’ friend would be so drawn ondiscussion of such matters – my experience is the opposite. But perhaps between those in the church /club and those out of it, the sometimes aversion manifests itself just based onmere differences. Maybe your friend hadn’tstopped believing – just that he didn’t or couldn’t ‘keep up appearances’ so tospeak.
Me and my immediate family are not especially in the church / club, for now. We were invited to leave based on havingdeveloped Universalist beliefs (which is a “doctrine of demons!” don’t you know,LOL) , but secondly, we have young energetic kids and don’t believe in thembeing separated from us to go to ‘their groups’ while the meeting is ongoing. But I know in Whom I have believed, etc. - myearly years background was (and still is) Pentecostal / experiential, but latterlyI am a fan of the cognitive-behavioural sciences approach, and I accept thespirit-soul-body model (as opposed to the rational senses model), probably asmuch by faith, and because it effectively explains HOW Jesus could soeffectively convince people. …The theory(by faith) is that the spiritual realm is true, and the natural realm resultedfrom it – therefore truth comes from the spirit itself, rather than from mere interpretationof it.
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Originally Posted by euroscope
Fast forward a few years later and I was alwaysbuying apolgetics, I was intrigued with people trying to make a historic casefor the supernatural. I found a few arguments to be impressive, I'm talkingmaybe 10% of me thought it could be true and 90% thought the objectionsdestroyed it...not exactly the faith of Job lol. So, with such a lopsidedbelief what kept me intrigued was that every other religion on Earth hadabsolutely 0% of it that swayed me to believing it was true, literally not even.001%. So I was always fascinated that there was a story line of thesupernatural that would EVER have even a piece of me thinking that it might betrue. Today I float at about hmm...30%. Everything that I found impressiverevolves around the mind boggling things that history proves Jesus CONVINCEDPEOPLE of. I love human psychology, nobody can convince people of what heconvinced people of it's friggin baffling to human psychology (had he been justa human). Please don't ask me to explain I don't want to type 19 paragraphslol.
Just make a bullet point list. Itwould be good to read it.
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Originally Posted by euroscope
And also, there is nothing that helps nudge metowards belief more than straw men arguments. I've been over so much technicalresearch and if one more person tries to tell me that the gnostic gospels arethe real ones, or that Jesus was preceded by other people who rose from thedead/was virgin born, etc, I'm gonna scream. The data crushes those accusationsand I swear to the God that I don't quite believe in (lol) that the more peoplethrow straw men arguments at me the more that I actually start believing inthat 'Spiritually blind' crap...it drives me nuts because it IS NOT HARDRESEARCH to uncover how those fallacious those arguments are. Don't even get mestarted on people who say Jesus never existed.
Objectively, God either is or is not – how could it be for anyone to saywhich way it is. But subjectively; if Heis not, then your 70% unbelief puts you on safe ground. If He is, your 30% belief is definitely amustard seed, and I heard the other day that mustard trees can grow to 15 feettall. Spiritually speaking, it’s the nature of faith - there’s no getting to 50%before it’s half true – faith is not a dormant object – it is a spiritual thingin and of itself - it has magnitude and direction just like a vector (for theDespicable Me fans) and needs to be exercised, like muscles. My experience is that if one exercises itenough, then there will be a whole series of “whoa!” moments, throughout one’s life,and you will connect with what people say doesn’t exist.
No not Duncan Heaster. There's one Christian scholar who is brilliant, I have a DVD course from him on Jesus prophecies. Now I'm not a Christian, I'm not really anything other than a rare guy who recognizes some good arguments on both sides of the fence....Anyway, this DVD course, before watching this I have always rolled my eyes at prophecies, always thought the arguments were so vague and superficial. Well I have to give credit where credit is due this guy puts up one hell of a case for it using the OT.
So anyway, this guy is damn good, fluent in Hebrew very educated, pretty damn articulate and makes good analogies...this guy has made claims that he has witnessed exorcisms during missions to Africa. UGH!! No offense to you or him but this is where my skepticism flashes a solid red light. I think the imagination is a powerful thing, and like I said mentally insane people are capable of some scary things. So I'm not claiming that your or him are a liar, just saying you are probably swept away by faith and are just witnessing an insane person.
So I emailed this guy more than once with my 'Video camera' objection but never got a reply (in his defense I haven't gotten replies on other non confrontational things as well he is very busy). But anyway my #1 objection to exorcisms is that we have had video cameras now for over 100 years, hell now every other person can video from their cell phone. So I'll ask you what I emailed him, if exorcisms are taking place how on Earth would it not occur to these exorcists how POWERFUL of a testimony it would be for unbelievers if they would film one of these exorcisms!!!?? For the life of me I could not understand how IF there are exorcisms going on how are they not on Youtube? And if you know of any please post a link. I mean now it's 2015, fortunately technology can help In some ways whereas it couldn't help 200 years ago. Some ways such as reaching people online with an audio Bible, OR showing them that there IS a spiritual realm via exorcism videos. Let me put this plainly;
IF I WERE TO WITNESS AN EXORCISM I WOULD BECOME A CHRISTIAN INSTANTLY!! And that was my message in my email to him. I was basically saying "Dude, you've studied that Bible and the ancient languages for 40 years, your life's mission is to convert people...Hello I'm right here!!! Show me an exorcism and your work is complete!!" Do you know what I'm saying ? Where have you seen exorcisms? Can you record one? I'm telling you I'll instantly believe if I saw one!
What is your opinion on this video? It took several strong men to restrain this guy.
I thought the next video in the list had more interest for me: http://youtu.be/I7pK9FgZM3k
For a start, nothing gets lost in translation.
Also, there are other parameters than just how strong someone is when they manifest. What about the multiple layers of a persons personality / make-up? Altered personalities ('alters') created as a coping strategy when someone underwent stress. The fact that the alter can be possessed, but not the 1st person themself - I've read about this in Carolyn Bramhall, Am I a good girl yet? - alters are created for survival, but they each need to go to Jesus once their work has been completed. And the new one for me was Ancestral Generational Dissociation - unhealed soul fragments of a previous generation / person in the blood line, being the foothold / stronghold of a generational curse. It's meaty stuff. Notice how the guy talks in an Irish accent when he is acting out and healing up the fragmented soul part of his ancestor, the priest, who burned the church down! ...Abba wants us in complete freedom and has given the keys and authority to us in Jesus.
P.S. just re read Bramhall. Alters have to integrate with the first person. it is the Healed soul fragments that have to go to Jesus - they belong with someone else, usually who has passed on.
Last edited by Age-enduring; 09-24-2015 at 01:30 AM..
It’s interesting that your ‘back slidden’ friend would be so drawn on discussion of such matters – my experience is the opposite. But perhaps between those in the church /club and those out of it, the sometimes aversion manifests itself just based on mere differences. Maybe your friend hadn’t stopped believing – just that he didn’t or couldn’t ‘keep up appearances’ so to speak.
He never stopped believing, he would sometimes shake his head and say that he needs to get his act together. That was a long time ago tho he barely drinks now and is way more of a family man.
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Originally Posted by Age-enduring
but lately I am a fan of the cognitive-behavioural sciences approach, and I accept the spirit-soul-body model (as opposed to the rational senses model), probably as much by faith, and because it effectively explains HOW Jesus could so effectively convince people. …The theory(by faith) is that the spiritual realm is true, and the natural realm resulted from it – therefore truth comes from the spirit itself, rather than from mere interpretation of it.
I don't know what all that is but when you talk about a pure faith based proposition you are speaking about my kryptonite, I in fact used to hate the word 'Faith' altogether often bitching that the word is the exact opposite of proof lol. I since changed my tune and believe there are differences between faith and empty faith. I made a statement that I believe 30%, well if a person has a certain anchor of (in his mind) proof, and also has a lot of unanswered questions that would require faith...and if they then say screw it I am taking the plunge...that is way better than empty faith which is to have no anchor of proof for anything at all.
It's like using the fact that you can prove A, B, C, and D as justification that you'll take the rest of the alphabet on faith. I can respect that decision. I've heard this analogy used for the gospel of Luke before (actually any gospel, any ancient document for that matter). There are certain criteria that you objectively apply to an ancient document (Luke or any document) to test it's worthiness...Luke is regarded as 'A historian of the highest rank' (Sir William Ramsay quote). He has been proven right on many accounts, and there were a handful of instances where Luke had an 'Error', or proved himself to be 'Ignorant' of something, later to be vindicated by an archaeological find. So you have these criteria but they can only do so much, they can only authenticate so much of a document simply because we're dealing with ancient history with limited information. So the 'Anchor of proof' theory goes like this, has Luke not bumped up his credibility with that which CAN be favorably analyzed with criteria, to the point where he deserves the benefit of the doubt for us to take the the parts from his gospel that CAN'T be verified on faith?? I think that definitely makes sense. So you are right when you say that eventually it comes down to a matter of faith because nobody can hope to achieve 100% proof, or even 50%. I know I'm a skeptic oh well that's what I am.
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Originally Posted by Age-enduring
Just make a bullet point list.
Bullet point lists are the exact opposite of what does it for me. Bullet point arguments about Biblical prophecies were precisely what made me roll my eyes at them for years. Articulately building a case is what I find convincing. The guy who finally impressed me on the prophecies did so in a very meticulous and detailed way. In fact this is why I find that Christian debates always favor the non Christian. It is way easier to attack the Bible then to defend it. There isn't enough time to build multiple cases in the time frame allotted for the multiple attacks the non-Christian throws at the Christian. The non-Christian just piles on the objections and the Christian has to chase the non-Christian around. And you simply can't answer all the objections because of limited data, which gives the non-Christian silver bullets to use...so they can just attack the unanswerable questions 'Win' a lot of the time.
Because of what you said, you reach a point of having to invoke faith on some issues. These things are open season for the non-Chistian in a debate.
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Originally Posted by Age-enduring
Objectively, God either is or is not – how could it be for anyone to say which way it is.
Everyone is entitled to the same objective amounts of data, it then becomes a matter of 'Inference to the best explanation' based on that data. 2 brilliant scholars will come to 2 totally separate inferences over the same data. You say 'How could it be for anyone to say which way it is', you are inquiring about people's inferences to their best explanations based on the data. If I'm not a Christian I am definitely a Deist. Oh yeah I forgot to add "God forbid you side with the inference that goes against the DOGMATIC RELIGION of evolution you will be ridiculed and mocked." Friggin hypocrites!!
I watched this video series before and I literally consider it all I need for belief in God (His inferences as to why God exists)...
I've listened to lots of pro-evolution points, for the life of me I don't get it. Natural selection over time...is their only argument to invoke 10 billion years to everything and NOT explain the biological process behind the specie jump? They basically say 'Well see 10 billion years did it.' I don't get it. TELL ME what biologically took place for the common ancestor of us and the ape to turn into us and the ape?? Oh that's right you never found the common ancestor. Oh that's right you just say 10 billion years did it I forgot.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
What is your opinion on this video? It took several strong men to restrain this guy.
I didn't notice this post. Looks like there are a ton of these Bob Larson videos. So, you must be of the belief that there are plenty of demon possessed people just like in Jesus' time, yet today we give it different names like multiple personality disorder??
I won't lie if these are really exorcisms then I definitely expected more, when I think of exorcism I'm literally looking for some 'Exorcist The Movie' type stuff...something that hands down CAN NOT possibly be acted out by an actor. EVEN IF this is an exorcism the problem (so far as it being proof) is that an actor can pull this off.
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