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Εἰ δὲ σὺ Ἰουδαῖος ἐπονομάζῃ is the Greek, get a good translation. Εἰ significantly, means "IF" so the passage should read: "IF you call yourself a Jew...
Paul was writing to a mixed lot, and there were clearly those whom we call Judaizers among them who did not understand the New Covenant extended to the gentiles as well as Israel. Bear this in mind as you study.
YLT is a literal translation...See how it changes the meaning of the passage when you change a word or insert a word?...Paul was using terminology specific to Jews that Gentiles wouldn't understand...So, it is obvious that he was not writing to Gentiles...
YLT
Rom 2:17 Lo, thou art named a Jew, and dost rest upon the law, and dost boast in God,
KJV
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
ἴδε
ide
id'-eh
Second person singular imperative active of G1492; used as interjection to denote surprise; lo!: - behold, lo, see.
Total KJV occurrences: 26
Jesus said, over and over, to keep the law. He never once said he was changing anything in the law. After Jesus died, if everyone is now under grace, why was James and them still keeping the law? Why did James, who actually knew Jesus, tell Paul, who never met Jesus, that he had heard that Paul was teaching people not to keep the law, and wanted to know if that was true? It wouldn't have even been an issue, if the law was abolished.
That doesn't sound like the law was done away with.
Even in the Book of Revelation, at the time of judgement, why is the 'Lord', telling the people who are calling him, Lord, to depart from him, that he never knew them, and calling them workers of lawlessness? Why does that book also talk about people who don't keep the law, but also those who tell others not to keep it?
Why is is that Jesus only condemns mans laws, that he said men wrote themselves, but not one time, does he ever condemn God's law. In fact, he says not until earth and heaven pass away, will one dot or dash be taken from God's law. Never once did Jesus say that grace or love replaced the law. Never. He never said anything even close to it.
So here's my question, considering what I have wrote, as the basis for my question:
Considering Jesus himself, told you to keep the law, you know James and them kept it after Jesus' death, and you know in the future, in the Book of Revelation, that the Lord himself condemns someone for being lawless; why would you go against what Jesus himself said, and follow what Paul says, when it goes against Jesus himself? .
Nateswift, I just finished reading up on everything. I told you it would probably take me awhile. Sry.
It would take me pages, upon pages, etc... to write everything I learned.
I think it is probably best to just say we disagree on religion. I see two different religions in the New Testament; Paul's new and completely different, anti-Torah religion, called Christianity, vs Jesus' continuation of Torah, and leading Jews back toTorah. Total polar opposites!
I know you disagree, and that is fine. If everyone agreed on religion, there wouldn't be so many different religions. Thank you for responding though.
Nateswift, I just finished reading up on everything. I told you it would probably take me awhile. Sry.
It would take me pages, upon pages, etc... to write everything I learned.
I think it is probably best to just say we disagree on religion. I see two different religions in the New Testament; Paul's new and completely different, anti-Torah religion, called Christianity, vs Jesus' continuation of Torah, and leading Jews back toTorah. Total polar opposites!
I know you disagree, and that is fine. If everyone agreed on religion, there wouldn't be so many different religions. Thank you for responding though.
It's amazing that you also seem to see what I see...
YLT is a literal translation...See how it changes the meaning of the passage when you change a word or insert a word?...Paul was using terminology specific to Jews that Gentiles wouldn't understand...So, it is obvious that he was not writing to Gentiles...
YLT
Rom 2:17 Lo, thou art named a Jew, and dost rest upon the law, and dost boast in God,
KJV
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
ἴδε
ide
id'-eh
Second person singular imperative active of G1492; used as interjection to denote surprise; lo!: - behold, lo, see.
Total KJV occurrences: 26
Deceptive of you....
I'm not the one being deceptive. I see the problem: the best scholarship shows it as two words that got jammed together in some copies: Εἰ δὲ becomes Εδὲ and becomes a meaningless expression that changes the intent of the passage. So much for textual integrity.
What remains is the obvious (to anyone not beating a particular drum) recognition that (as everywhere else that Paul went) the congregation consisted of Jews and gentile.
The composition of the church at Rome has been the subject of much speculation and debate. It is unlikely that it was a totally Gentile church even though Paul addresses it as such (Rom 1:5, 6, 13 etc.). Apparently, however, the composition of the church which Paul addressed was predominantly Gentile. It is possible, as Schaff points out, that there were two groups, Jewish and Gentile, not joined together in the same community of believers. - See more at: https://www.biblicaltraining.org/lib....XUBen7Sg.dpuf
It's amazing that you also seem to see what I see...
I don't see how it can possibly be seen any other way, but I guess everyone sees things different; hence all the religions. After posting here, I went over to the Judaism thread, and have been reading there for awhile.
I must say, Judaism seems to have a lot of different beliefs under it's umbrella, as well. I think I'm going to read the OT again, from beginning to end, before going back to the Judaism thread.
The Torah seems so easy and uncomplicated, at least to me. It's pretty cut and dry, and not much is left to interpretation. I couldn't really understand the divisions spoken of, in the Judaism thread, or where all the extra things came from, that seemed to complicate the simplicity of Torah.
I think I need to study the Torah a considerable bit more, before looking into any other teachings. Though it's teachings are easy enough to understand, there are are a lot of them, and I need to get used to them all. Especially before I start looking into anything else.
I need to find a good calendar, that lists certain dates. If you can refer one to me, it would be much appreciated. I hope if I run into something that I don't fully understand, that it would be okay to contact you, and ask you a question or two.
I'm not the one being deceptive. I see the problem: the best scholarship shows it as two words that got jammed together in some copies: Εἰ δὲ becomes Εδὲ and becomes a meaningless expression that changes the intent of the passage. So much for textual integrity.
What remains is the obvious (to anyone not beating a particular drum) recognition that (as everywhere else that Paul went) the congregation consisted of Jews and gentile.
The composition of the church at Rome has been the subject of much speculation and debate. It is unlikely that it was a totally Gentile church even though Paul addresses it as such (Rom 1:5, 6, 13 etc.). Apparently, however, the composition of the church which Paul addressed was predominantly Gentile. It is possible, as Schaff points out, that there were two groups, Jewish and Gentile, not joined together in the same community of believers. - See more at: https://www.biblicaltraining.org/lib....XUBen7Sg.dpuf
Don't care what shaff has to say...If two words got jammed together and were meaningless, someone would have noticed it a long time ago...The fact still remains that he was using Judaic terminologies that Gentiles would not understand because they were not raised as Jews...So, it is obvious that he was addressing Jews in Rome...
I don't see how it can possibly be seen any other way, but I guess everyone sees things different; hence all the religions. After posting here, I went over to the Judaism thread, and have been reading there for awhile.
I must say, Judaism seems to have a lot of different beliefs under it's umbrella, as well. I think I'm going to read the OT again, from beginning to end, before going back to the Judaism thread.
The Torah seems so easy and uncomplicated, at least to me. It's pretty cut and dry, and not much is left to interpretation. I couldn't really understand the divisions spoken of, in the Judaism thread, or where all the extra things came from, that seemed to complicate the simplicity of Torah.
I think I need to study the Torah a considerable bit more, before looking into any other teachings. Though it's teachings are easy enough to understand, there are are a lot of them, and I need to get used to them all. Especially before I start looking into anything else.
I need to find a good calendar, that lists certain dates. If you can refer one to me, it would be much appreciated. I hope if I run into something that I don't fully understand, that it would be okay to contact you, and ask you a question or two.
Thank you for your help.
Sure, you can contact me...
I would suggest that you get a TaNaKh (Hebrew Bible) to read cover to cover, I recommend the Stone Edition because it has the Hebrew, English and Rashi Commentary in it...For the COT is not exactly like the TNK...As for differences within Judaism, there really exists only four, Ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative and Reform as opposed to the Christian denominations of 40K + Globally, In Judaism the four sects are all in agreement on Torah and such, their divisions are mainly pertaining to levels of observance and not a "my sect's right and yours is wrong" mentality like the Christians...
I would suggest that you get a TaNaKh (Hebrew Bible) to read cover to cover, I recommend the Stone Edition because it has the Hebrew, English and Rashi Commentary in it...For the COT is not exactly like the TNK...As for differences within Judaism, there really exists only four, Ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative and Reform as opposed to the Christian denominations of 40K + Globally, In Judaism the four sects are all in agreement on Torah and such, their divisions are mainly pertaining to levels of observance and not a "my sect's right and yours is wrong" mentality like the Christians...
Thank you for the suggestion for a,TaNakh. I have 'The Jewish Study Bible' , by Jewish Publication Society, TANAKH translation, Oxford University press, Copyright 2004. I will get the other, if you think it would be better than this one. Please let me know if you think the one I have is OK, or not.
I'm still ignoring all commentary, and Essays, included with my TaNakh, for right now. I want to be able to continue reading it myself for awhile, without filtering it through someone else's beliefs or how they interpret something.
I just don't want anything influencing me on what I'm reading. In the end, I want my own faith, not someone else's. I think that was the problem I had on the Judaism thread. I'm new with this, and there was just soooo much there! What would probably sound like the most basic of things in a conversation there to others, was ALL new to me. From words and phrases, to discussions about the different types of Judaism, to discussing what this person or that person said in their commentary. I have no frame of reference for that. I only have the TaNakh, and what I've read in it.
When I said that there were many different beliefs under one umbrella, I meant in no way, to insult you. I hope I've explained what I meant, a little better here. It was just very overwhelming. Thought and opinion, overload. I had read on that thread for several hours, before I finally turned it off.
I decided to just focus on the Torah for right now, and following the Torah. I really appreciate you being willing to answer any questions I might have. It's nice to know there is help, if I need it. Thank you again for that.
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