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Christians are bound to the original purpose of the laws . . . agape love. Most do not seem to exhibit it, thinking that their belief in the RIGHT things ABOUT Jesus and God are sufficient. Sad. The thing about the principle, as opposed to any laws created according to it, is the principle covers far more than ten or even 613. It covers all sorts of human interactions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Those with authority problems hate and avoid the Torah and come up with all kinds of excuses why they don't follow it...
To believe as you do, Richard is to believe in a God who created everything including us just so that we can obey His laws. Even if that preposterous idea were true, why on earth would you ever love or want to obey such a petty cretin God???
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28
The "original" intent of the law---
For those who "forget" what the bible really says--Micah 6:8
8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Amen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by um..whatever
The law is the perfect will of God. Jesus said himself that the law should be kept. How can the perfect will of God be a bad thing? Throughout the Old Testament, the law is praised for being good and merciful. Jesus himself, followed the law. After Jesus died, James and those in Jerusalem still kept the law.
Perfect will . . . schmerfect will! God did not create a purposeless Creation and we are not created to obey laws. We are created to achieve the purpose of the laws . . . agape love . . . because God IS agape love. We are reproducing agape love (Who IS God). Some of us are terrible at it, Some of us are poor at it. Some of us are reasonable at it, but ONLY Christ was perfect at it . . . thank God! God needed at least ONE of us to be perfect at it and Christ IS.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 09-27-2015 at 08:39 PM..
If anyone teaches that we are not under the Law because the Law has been abolished then they are Lawless...Paul teaches that the Law has been abolished...And actually, Torah is more like instruction or guidance...And it is not just the first ten...It is the whole Law...If man couldn't keep the Law then, what makes people think that they can keep it now?...The thing I keep hearing is that man is incapable of keeping the Torah and this is why Yeshua had to sacrifice himself for everyone's atonement...First HaShem states that one man cannot die for another man's sins, but that each man shall die for his own sins...And He also stated that He abhors human sacrifice...So, what is said about Yeshua is in direct violation of those two statements made by HaShem...
The way I understood it, by my reading, was that the priests were corrupt in those days. They were teaching man's laws, that they themselves had made, and they were laws that no one could keep, not even themselves. That they had put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, and that their hearts were far removed from God. So far removed, that Jesus called them all a brood of vipers.
So to my understanding, it was never about God's laws, but about men's laws. That the priest's were not truly following God, and making it impossible for the Israelites to truly follow God. That they were teaching mostly their laws, which was not from God. If I'm not mistaken, and I could be, I believe the Israelites brought their sacrifices to the priest, for them to sacrifice. That the Israelites depended on these priest to make their sacrifices to God, for their sins or atonement. The Israelites were stuck beholden to these corrupt priests. The priest ran the synagogues.
Since they were all corrupt, God made a way for us to have access to him without having to go through the priests. He sent Jesus. Jesus followed all of God's laws, so that when he died, he was sinless. He was not sacrificed, as a human sacrifice. He was tried and found guilty of blasphemy, though no lawlessness was found in him. They took him and murdered him. Murder, because he was innocent, yet they took his life.
He remained faithful to God, until the end. It was God's will that he die though, for God loved us all so much, that he provided another way to him, that men could not block or corrupt, and he provided another sacrifice for us, for the attonement of our sins. He was the son of God, and when he died, there was a great earthquake, and the veil of the temple, the holy of holies, was rent in two. No longer did man have to depend on other men, to teach them, or to sacrifice for them. We all were given direct access to God.
God's son was innocent, and anyone that prayed to God from then on, if they would lift up Jesus's soul to him in place of a sacrifice, he would see Jesus, and accept it as a sacrifice for our sins, as he once did with rams, etc...
So there was no human sacrifice, only God allowing Jesus's soul to become the substitute for us all.
As far as him dying for our sins, we are all accountable for our own sins. Everything we do, we will be accountable for. In no way does it say that we are not. Just as a ram or lamb, etc... was sacrificed and died in place of us, for our sins, it is the same way with Jesus. That is all that means.
This is just my understanding of my reading of the New Testament. I have nothing else to base it on. I don't go to church, I wasn't raised a christian, so I'm looking for answers about what Christianity really is myself; basically I am not a theologian. So this is just my take on what I've read. I still have a lot of questions about Jesus. Questions I have yet to find anyone to answer.
I just saw that noone had answered you, so I figured I'd tell you what I took away from my reading of the New Testament, in trying to answer your two concerns. Please tell me if you read it differently, or view it as inconsistent with the Old Testament. I just don't think you can have the New Testament, without the Old Testament, backing it up.
I would appreciate hearing any thoughts you have on this. Thanks.
To believe as you do, Richard is to believe in a God who created everything including us just sot hat we can obey His laws. Even if that preposterous idea were true, why on earth would you ever love or want to aboey such a cretin God???
Amen!
Perfect will . . . schmerfect will! God did not create a purposeless Creation and we are not created to obey laws. We are created to achieve the purpose of the laws . . . agape love . . . because God IS agape love. We are reproducing agape love (Who IS God). Some of us are terrible at it, Some of us are poor at it. Some of us are reasonable at it, but ONLY Christ was perfect at it . . . thank God! God needed at least ONE of us to be perfect at it and Christ IS.
A cretin God? The one who said that he is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow?
The same God who gave us those laws? The same God who said that that was our covenant with him? The same laws that David praised? The same laws that Jesus himself said to keep?
"Even if that preposterous idea were true, why on earth would you ever love or want to obey such a cretin God?"
So basically, Jesus is the son of a cretin God? The old testament God, who is still the God of the new testament, is evil in your eyes?
A cretin God? The one who said that he is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow?
The same God who gave us those laws? The same God who said that that was our covenant with him? The same laws that David praised? The same laws that Jesus himself said to keep?
"Even if that preposterous idea were true, why on earth would you ever love or want to obey such a cretin God?"
So basically, Jesus is the son of a cretin God? The old testament God, who is still the God of the new testament, is evil in your eyes?
Wow! Just, wow!!
Go back and read the post again. Put on your reading comprehension cap and hopefully you'll see that you totally missed what Mystic said. Hint: He did not call God a cretin.
To believe as you do, Richard is to believe in a God who created everything including us just so that we can obey His laws. Even if that preposterous idea were true, why on earth would you ever love or want to obey such a petty cretin God???
Amen!
Perfect will . . . schmerfect will! God did not create a purposeless Creation and we are not created to obey laws. We are created to achieve the purpose of the laws . . . agape love . . . because God IS agape love. We are reproducing agape love (Who IS God). Some of us are terrible at it, Some of us are poor at it. Some of us are reasonable at it, but ONLY Christ was perfect at it . . . thank God! God needed at least ONE of us to be perfect at it and Christ IS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by um..whatever
A cretin God? The one who said that he is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow?
Any God who would create us strictly so we would obey Him and for no other reason is a petty cretin. Fortunately, the Christian God is NOT. The Christian God IS agape love, period.
Quote:
"Even if that preposterous idea were true, why on earth would you ever love or want to obey such a cretin God?"
So basically, Jesus is the son of a cretin God? The old testament God, who is still the God of the new testament, is evil in your eyes?
Wow! Just, wow!!
The God as described by ignorant primitive and barbaric savages is NOT the God Jesus revealed unambiguously. Their descriptions and understanding of God were primitive and barbaric. They were WRONG!. Jesus lifted the veil of ignorance over reading the OT.
2 Corinthians 3:14-17
But their minds were blinded:(blind mind=ignorant) for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it (the Heart) shall turn to the Lord (Christ), the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit(Holy Spirit of agape love): and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
God has sent the Comforter in Christ's name to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" in the Spirit of agape love (Who IS God)
John 14:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 2:27 (King James Version)
27But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.
2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)
2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
The way I understood it, by my reading, was that the priests were corrupt in those days. They were teaching man's laws, that they themselves had made, and they were laws that no one could keep, not even themselves. That they had put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, and that their hearts were far removed from God. So far removed, that Jesus called them all a brood of vipers.
So to my understanding, it was never about God's laws, but about men's laws. That the priest's were not truly following God, and making it impossible for the Israelites to truly follow God. That they were teaching mostly their laws, which was not from God. If I'm not mistaken, and I could be, I believe the Israelites brought their sacrifices to the priest, for them to sacrifice. That the Israelites depended on these priest to make their sacrifices to God, for their sins or atonement. The Israelites were stuck beholden to these corrupt priests. The priest ran the synagogues.
Since they were all corrupt, God made a way for us to have access to him without having to go through the priests. He sent Jesus. Jesus followed all of God's laws, so that when he died, he was sinless. He was not sacrificed, as a human sacrifice. He was tried and found guilty of blasphemy, though no lawlessness was found in him. They took him and murdered him. Murder, because he was innocent, yet they took his life.
He remained faithful to God, until the end. It was God's will that he die though, for God loved us all so much, that he provided another way to him, that men could not block or corrupt, and he provided another sacrifice for us, for the attonement of our sins. He was the son of God, and when he died, there was a great earthquake, and the veil of the temple, the holy of holies, was rent in two. No longer did man have to depend on other men, to teach them, or to sacrifice for them. We all were given direct access to God.
God's son was innocent, and anyone that prayed to God from then on, if they would lift up Jesus's soul to him in place of a sacrifice, he would see Jesus, and accept it as a sacrifice for our sins, as he once did with rams, etc...
So there was no human sacrifice, only God allowing Jesus's soul to become the substitute for us all.
As far as him dying for our sins, we are all accountable for our own sins. Everything we do, we will be accountable for. In no way does it say that we are not. Just as a ram or lamb, etc... was sacrificed and died in place of us, for our sins, it is the same way with Jesus. That is all that means.
This is just my understanding of my reading of the New Testament. I have nothing else to base it on. I don't go to church, I wasn't raised a christian, so I'm looking for answers about what Christianity really is myself; basically I am not a theologian. So this is just my take on what I've read. I still have a lot of questions about Jesus. Questions I have yet to find anyone to answer.
I just saw that noone had answered you, so I figured I'd tell you what I took away from my reading of the New Testament, in trying to answer your two concerns. Please tell me if you read it differently, or view it as inconsistent with the Old Testament. I just don't think you can have the New Testament, without the Old Testament, backing it up.
I would appreciate hearing any thoughts you have on this. Thanks.
No matter how you slice it a sacrifice for the propitiation of one's sins is a sacrifice, be it human or animal...Well, certainly you cannot have the NT without the OT, however you cannot have the TaNaKh with the NT, they don't match up...If we are still responsible for our own sins then Jesus did nothing for us...Rather, I think he showed the way back to G-d...By example...
To believe as you do, Richard is to believe in a God who created everything including us just so that we can obey His laws. Even if that preposterous idea were true, why on earth would you ever love or want to obey such a petty cretin God???
Amen!
Perfect will . . . schmerfect will! God did not create a purposeless Creation and we are not created to obey laws. We are created to achieve the purpose of the laws . . . agape love . . . because God IS agape love. We are reproducing agape love (Who IS God). Some of us are terrible at it, Some of us are poor at it. Some of us are reasonable at it, but ONLY Christ was perfect at it . . . thank God! God needed at least ONE of us to be perfect at it and Christ IS.
To believe as you do, Richard is to believe in a God who created everything including us just so that we can obey His laws. Even if that preposterous idea were true, why on earth would you ever love or want to obey such a petty cretin God???
Amen!
Perfect will . . . schmerfect will! God did not create a purposeless Creation and we are not created to obey laws. We are created to achieve the purpose of the laws . . . agape love . . . because God IS agape love. We are reproducing agape love (Who IS God). Some of us are terrible at it, Some of us are poor at it. Some of us are reasonable at it, but ONLY Christ was perfect at it . . . thank God! God needed at least ONE of us to be perfect at it and Christ IS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
I see His Torah differently than you do...
I know you do, but it seems you do not question the reasonableness or rationality of creating "obeyers of laws" instead of thinking and loving human beings. What is it about such a God that you find appealing and worthy of worship????
I know you do, but it seems you do not question the reasonableness or rationality of creating "obeyers of laws" instead of thinking and loving human beings. What is it about such a God that you find appealing and worthy of worship????
I do love Human being, that is what the Law tells me to do...However, I see the Mitzvot as an opportunity to improve myself as a mensch...
Go back and read the post again. Put on your reading comprehension cap and hopefully you'll see that you totally missed what Mystic said. Hint: He did not call God a cretin.
I guess it all comes down to what you believe God's law actually is, in how you perceive that post.
If you believe it is the will of God given to us for a covenant, then my perception is self explanatory.
If you don't, then I can see how someone wouldn't think anything of the remarks.
No biggie. I'm not a christian anyway, so I believe I'll leave the christian stuff to those of you who are.
Thank you for replying though.
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