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Your scenarios have nothing to do with the issue at hand. The issue, the only issue, being addressed is whether a Christian is willing to die for his faith, or whether he will deny being a Christian in order to avoid being killed.
Peter, after asserting that he would never deny Jesus even if he had to die with Him (Matthew 26:35) did in fact cowardly deny Him three times. The fact that he recovered afterwards and that ''all was good between him and Jesus'' is not the point. And his was a martyrs death in the end.
The apostle Paul never denied his faith and finally was martyred.
Many Christians in the early church chose martyrdom rather than to deny or to recant their faith. Others chose to recant rather than die. And yes, it is a choice each person must make. Be a coward or be courageous even unto death.
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Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28
Denying Christ is the SAME as denying your faith, no matter how the fundie brain interprets it.
Of course denying Christ is the same as denying your faith. I never implied otherwise.
Quote:
And tell me who will be sitting on the thrones of Revelation 20:4--will it be JUST MEN, or will WOMEN be given a few thrones as well?
This too has nothing to do with the issue at hand, with what the OP asked. Nor will I indulge you in your personal crusade against what you perceive to be injustices. End of conversation.
God knows what is in out hearts. He does not expect us to make ourselves martyrs because some whack-job on a killing spree is asking questions.
LIFE matters. Surviving matters. Returning home to your family matters. Answering the questions of a disturbed killer who is pumping bullets into innocent people does not.
Of course denying Christ is the same as denying your faith. I never implied otherwise.
This too has nothing to do with the issue at hand, with what the OP asked. Nor will I indulge you in your personal crusade against what you perceive to be injustices. End of conversation.
It has everything to do with the OP..Are we expected to die for our faith?
You said only COWARDS deny their faith
Therefore Peter is a COWARD
SO Peter denied his faith and was a coward for denying Christ?
And Still Jesus embraced Peter and called him (his faith) THE ROCK UPON WHICH I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH...
This concludes our lesson in SCRIPTURAL LOGIC 101...
Your scenarios have nothing to do with the issue at hand. The issue, the only issue, being addressed is whether a Christian is willing to die for his faith, or whether he will deny being a Christian in order to avoid being killed.
Peter, after asserting that he would never deny Jesus even if he had to die with Him (Matthew 26:35) did in fact cowardly deny Him three times. The fact that he recovered afterwards and that ''all was good between him and Jesus'' is not the point. And his was a martyrs death in the end.
The apostle Paul never denied his faith and finally was martyred.
Many Christians in the early church chose martyrdom rather than to deny or to recant their faith. Others chose to recant rather than die. And yes, it is a choice each person must make. Be a coward or be courageous even unto death.
So you're a coward if you want to live? You're a coward if you have minor children at home and want to get home to them and not get shot or killed? You're a coward if you have an ailing spouse you need to care for and want to live for them?
That kind of attitude - that any Christian should be willing to DIE for their faith - is a sickness. God knows what is in our hearts and our minds. What someone says to a deranged killer in order to live means nothing.
The Christian response to these killings has turned me off to Christianity more and faster than anything else ever has. I grew up Catholic, grew up being taught that all life is sacred and that how we treat our fellow humans was a greater testimony of faith than any preaching or church attending. I left the Christianity behind at a young age but have dabbled with returning to the church here and there, including researching the Catholic churches that have split from Rome.
But the Christian response, especially the fundie response, to these killings - the "brave Christian" memes, the IAmAChristian hashtag, the refusal to admit that he was just shooting people no matter what they said (and that his first victim was a JEW), and using these shootings to "prove" that Christians are being persecuted in America has disgusted me beyond belief.
Your bull**** Christian responses (yes, I'm using the general "you," but you know who you are) has assured that I NEVER, EVER want to be associated with Christianity in any way, shape, or form ever again.
Some Christians are quite willing to deny Christ in order to save their lives in this world. Others (more spiritually mature, and with the right priorities) would never think of denying Him. It's a decision each Christian who finds himself in that situation must make.
An example from early church history.
Pliny the Younger, Letters 10.96-97
Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan
'It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.
Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.
Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ. ' [Bolding mine]
So you're a coward if you want to live? You're a coward if you have minor children at home and want to get home to them and not get shot or killed? You're a coward if you have an ailing spouse you need to care for and want to live for them?
That kind of attitude - that any Christian should be willing to DIE for their faith - is a sickness. God knows what is in our hearts and our minds. What someone says to a deranged killer in order to live means nothing.
No, it's not a sickness. It's an issue of choosing whether you will proclaim Christ despite personal danger to yourself, or deny him in order to avoid dying. It's a decision, regardless of the particulars of the situation, that many Christians down through the centuries have been called to make. And it is something that is between each individual and the Lord.
No, it's not a sickness. It's an issue of choosing whether you will proclaim Christ despite personal danger to yourself, or deny him in order to avoid dying. It's a decision, regardless of the particulars of the situation, that many Christians down through the centuries have been called to make. And it is something that is between each individual and the Lord.
It is a sickness if you believe you MUST die for your god and if you don't, you're a coward. You used that word, coward.
GOD knows what is in our hearts and our minds, and God certainly wants us to live our lives. I have children who I want to see grow up and live their lives. God gave me those children. I would say ANYTHING I had to say in order to live so I can spend as long as possible with them. That does not make me a coward. It means I will do anything for my family.
The faith of believers is constantly tested in this life. Some believers face the test of being willing to die for their faith. God takes believers home in various ways. For some it is by martyrdom. Facing the test of martyrdom, a person must decide if he is willing to deny Christ before others in order to live, or to proclaim Christ even at the cost of his life. A person who values his life more than He does Jesus will no doubt deny Him. Many Christians have gladly gone to their martyrdom proclaiming Jesus. Others have not.
I think I've spend enough time on this. Obviously, many of you would deny Christ to save your own life. That's your choice. Others though out history have made a different choice.
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