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Actually the word HELL in our modern English stems from the OLD English 'helle', and means 'a world to come'. It indeed may have other roots but the point is that it is used in modern English to connote Hades, which is identified by Jesus in Luke 16:23 as a place of torment. Now Jesus used it in a physical sense, as the rich man states; have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ Spirits or souls obviously don't feel physical pain, so it was likely hyperbole to demonstrate a type of spiritual agony only able to be related to by physical metaphor.
As far as the Lake of Fire is concerned, it is a place where ALL souls will be punished eternally as Jesus states in Matt 25:41, which is confirmed in Rev 20:10. It is NOT hell, but it is where death and Hades will be swallowed up.
Universal salvation is not factual. Only those that Paul depicts as being saved in Rom 10:9-11 are saved and will inherit eternal life, IF they endure.
Come on Eusebius..... we are counting on you to bring down the temple of hell doctrine..... you're good at this kind of thing(but you're still a fundy)
Actually the word HELL in our modern English stems from the OLD English 'helle', and means 'a world to come'. It indeed may have other roots but the point is that it is used in modern English to connote Hades, which is identified by Jesus in Luke 16:23 as a place of torment.
Hades is not a place of torment!
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Now Jesus used it in a physical sense, as the rich man states; have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ Spirits or souls obviously don't feel physical pain, so it was likely hyperbole to demonstrate a type of spiritual agony only able to be related to by physical metaphor.
I doubt that you understand the parable, and who it referenced.
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As far as the Lake of Fire is concerned, it is a place where ALL souls will be punished eternally as Jesus states in Matt 25:41, which is confirmed in Rev 20:10. It is NOT hell, but it is where death and Hades will be swallowed up.
Lake through the idea of nearness to shore is a haven, much like that of a harbor.
It has nothing to do with your concept of Hades or eternal punishment.
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Universal salvation is not factual. Only those that Paul depicts as being saved in Rom 10:9-11 are saved and will inherit eternal life, IF they endure.
Actually the word HELL in our modern English stems from the OLD English 'helle', and means 'a world to come'.
Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary, says this: Hell, (helle), hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.
In other words the grave, which is Sheol or Hades, if properly translated.
Yes. Pleroo's explanation above comes very close minus any implication of punishment of any kind. Our consciousness is the locus of all our feelings and thoughts, both heavenly and hellish. We literally create both sets of conditions within our consciousness and they are not illusory. Our consciousness is a real production of a real energic phenomenon within our reality. The cumulative composite is what defines our character and what we will experience after death and rebirth as Spirit.
The Zoroastrian conception is another useful paradigm that informs my view. I do not embrace it completely, but it is instructive about the import of our thoughts and feelings since we can control them. The Zoroastrian conception of heaven and hell should engender some thoughtful reflection for this discussion. Heaven is described as an immortality of purity in thought, word, and deed. Hell is described as an age-during of evil thoughts, words, and deeds, and mental torment. You can see why this resonates with my view that we are to join the consciousness of God after death (which cannot be other than pure thoughts, words, and deeds) or join the consciousness of the failures (which cannot be other than evil thoughts, words, and deeds with immense regret . . . "weeping and gnashing of teeth").
I envision the latter as composed entirely of experiencing whatever hurt and harm we have done to others, either deliberately or obliviously, out of our selfish motivation. This would be a true "reap what we sow." IOW, WE control what we will experience based on how we treat others in this life. God will simply supply us with the clarity of consciousness of His pure agape love as the backdrop for our self-assessment of our entire life. This will produce an enduring change of our consciousness (repentance) that will make us compatible enough to join with God's consciousness.
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Originally Posted by Cruithne
Thanks for sharing Mystic. After all you said here, this might sound like a childish question but I'm just interested... do you think your consciousness will remain intact ie will you still be 'MysticPhD' as a conscious entity, ie will you remember who you were in this life, or will that consciousness be dispersed and your identity forgotten?
Does that make sense?
My experiences lead me to conclude that we retain our individuality but achieve a oneness of Spirit with all others in a multitude. I am obviously ill-equipped here to know exactly how those instances of our life where we were decidedly unloving (or unGodly) will be handled. The integration of personality that usually occurs would suggest that they are ultimately integrated whenever we address them (as in repentance or remorse). But, the existence of multiple personality disorder suggests that it may not necessarily be so, especially if they are NOT addressed while alive.
My experiences lead me to conclude that we retain our individuality but achieve a oneness of Spirit with all others in a multitude. I am obviously ill-equipped here to know exactly how those instances of our life where we were decidedly unloving (or unGodly) will be handled. The integration of personality that usually occurs would suggest that they are ultimately integrated whenever we address them (as in repentance or remorse). But, the existence of multiple personality disorder suggests that it may not necessarily be so, especially if they are NOT addressed while alive.
I'm not sure what you mean by the inclusion or relevance of 'multiple personality disorder'. Do you believe in reincarnation of some kind?
Also you seem to be indicating that you believe in the possibility that there will be some sort of judgement that takes place after death?
I'm not sure what you mean by the inclusion or relevance of 'multiple personality disorder'. Do you believe in reincarnation of some kind?
Also you seem to be indicating that you believe in the possibility that there will be some sort of judgement that takes place after death?
Actually the word HELL in our modern English stems from the OLD English 'helle', and means 'a world to come'. It indeed may have other roots but the point is that it is used in modern English to connote Hades, which is identified by Jesus in Luke 16:23 as a place of torment. Now Jesus used it in a physical sense, as the rich man states; have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ Spirits or souls obviously don't feel physical pain, so it was likely hyperbole to demonstrate a type of spiritual agony only able to be related to by physical metaphor.
I already showed how the word "hell" was used by the German people. They would hell (cover) their potatoes or they would hell (cover) their roof of their house or barn. They would hell (cover) a dead person in their grave with dirt.
The very word "[h]ades" means "imperceptible" in that one, once they die, is no longer seen since, upon death, are in the tomb. It comes from the joining of the prefix "a" meaning "un" or "no" as in a-theist, and "des" which is contracted due to crasis, and means "perceive" or "see."
In the PARABLE of the rich man and lazarus, Hades was used as a story to teach a lesson, not an historic account of what happens when one dies. The ancient Hebrews used Sheol of the grave. The Jewish Greeks, in their Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek translated Sheol as Hades showing they meant Hades to be the grave.
In a grave or tomb, there isn't really fire or a river running through it or a vast impassable chasm. And scripturally, when a person dies they don't literally feel pain. And rich people don't go to torment just because they received the good things in this life. And poor people don't go to heaven just because they received evil things in this life. Yet the parable portrays just that. The parable was to poke at the religious rulers who wore fine clothing and ate sumptuously while they neglected the poor. They hated Jesus because of that parable and sought to kill Him.
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As far as the Lake of Fire is concerned, it is a place where ALL souls will be punished eternally as Jesus states in Matt 25:41, which is confirmed in Rev 20:10. It is NOT hell, but it is where death and Hades will be swallowed up.
The Bible doesn't say the lake of fire is eternal nor does it say the humans are conscious in that lake. How could they be especially when it is DEATH?
Matthew 25:31-46 is not about the lake of fire. That judgment of those nations as to how they treated the Israelites takes place when Christ returns to set up His 1000 year long kingdom in Israel. So that judgment in Matthew takes place 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne judgment.
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Universal salvation is not factual. Only those that Paul depicts as being saved in Rom 10:9-11 are saved and will inherit eternal life, IF they endure.
Eternal torment is not factual. Paul tells us that "God will have all mankind to be saved" and that God is going to reconcile ALL in the heavens and ALL on the earth to Him making peace through the blood of Christ's cross. And then Paul says "you (believers) are reconciled NOW" therefore the rest of mankind must come later (see 1 Tim.2:4-6; Colossians 1:20-23).
"Hell" is a mistranslation of several different Hebrew and Greek words. The word "Hell" is of Germanic origin and originally meant "to cover." One would hell their potatoes or hell the roof. Of if they were at a grave site and they were burying someone they would hell (cover the person with dirt) someone who had died.
Sheol is the Hebrew word for the grave and Hades is the Greek word for Sheol.
Gehenna is going to be a trash dump outside of Jerusalem during the millennial reign of Christ in Israel where fire and worms will consume the city trash. The worst criminals will have their dead bodies cast into Gehenna rather than be entombed. Some translations call all these different places "Hell."
The lake of fire is called "the second death." It is not living in torment. It is death.
So, while I believe all mankind EVENTUALLY will be saved (1 Timothy 2:4-6), before that salvation occurs for all mankind, some will experience Sheol or Hades or the second death.
Thanks Eusebius and others who have contributed to this discussion.
I have learnt such a lot from this thread.
I'd never even heard of this Gehenna theory and so on.
Interesting stuff.
I came across this Wikipedia page that goes into a little bit of detail about all the possible origins of the Christian ideas about hell.
I already showed how the word "hell" was used by the German people. They would hell (cover) their potatoes or they would hell (cover) their roof of their house or barn. They would hell (cover) a dead person in their grave with dirt.
The very word "[h]ades" means "imperceptible" in that one, once they die, is no longer seen since, upon death, are in the tomb. It comes from the joining of the prefix "a" meaning "un" or "no" as in a-theist, and "des" which is contracted due to crasis, and means "perceive" or "see."
In the PARABLE of the rich man and lazarus, Hades was used as a story to teach a lesson, not an historic account of what happens when one dies. The ancient Hebrews used Sheol of the grave. The Jewish Greeks, in their Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek translated Sheol as Hades showing they meant Hades to be the grave.
In a grave or tomb, there isn't really fire or a river running through it or a vast impassable chasm. And scripturally, when a person dies they don't literally feel pain. And rich people don't go to torment just because they received the good things in this life. And poor people don't go to heaven just because they received evil things in this life. Yet the parable portrays just that. The parable was to poke at the religious rulers who wore fine clothing and ate sumptuously while they neglected the poor. They hated Jesus because of that parable and sought to kill Him.
The Bible doesn't say the lake of fire is eternal nor does it say the humans are conscious in that lake. How could they be especially when it is DEATH?
Matthew 25:31-46 is not about the lake of fire. That judgment of those nations as to how they treated the Israelites takes place when Christ returns to set up His 1000 year long kingdom in Israel. So that judgment in Matthew takes place 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne judgment.
Eternal torment is not factually. Paul tells us that "God will have all mankind to be saved" and that God is going to reconcile ALL in the heavens and ALL on the earth to Him making peace through the blood of Christ's cross. And then Paul says "you (believers) are reconciled NOW" therefore the rest of mankind must come later (see 1 Tim.2:4-6; Colossians 1:20-23).
I know, I must say Eusebius has surprised me in this thread.
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