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Apart from faith based denial of very real doubts about whether the Gospels can possibly be eyewitness, i have no idea what you mean. If the Gospel text doesn't stack up as credible eyewitness material then it doesn't matter what colour you print it in.
Eyewitness as in first person is only John and Matthew......... Luke and Mark are not written in first person
thats why I left main stream protestanism ( i.e. ELCA Lutheran church ) and went back to my RC roots.
Thats not to say there arent RC churches whose pastors aren't Apostastic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronOB
The Holy Bible warns about Dead Churches and Apostasy in the Last Time. As predicted two thousands years ago leftists now have almost killed the True Christianity and smoothed the way for Islam and Sharia law in western countries.Why leftists fervently desire Sharia law in western countries? The answer can be easy, it is due to abnormality of leftism, a devils teaching born in ill heads which allows anything wrong and prohibits anything good.More as 300 millions innocent victims leftism already killed e.g. in Russia, China, the East Europa, Cambodia etc. In addition to that leftism kills 800 millions still Christian people who live today in still Christian countries due to conquer this countries by Islam.
Look this crazy traitorous female 'Christian' 'Bishop', can you imagine yourselves that one Muslim Imam somewhere in a big European or US city show only a whiff of compliance for Christian needs?
Therefore, if you still believe in Jesus Christ you shall leave such dead 'churches' immediately ( in the western countries more as 90 % of all churches are already dead ), read the Holy Bible and pray to Jesus for helping to find a true one.Otherwise such dead 'churches' will help you go to Hell, not to Paradise.
By the way it is not for nothing that the Holy Bible demands from Christians:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1 Corinthians 14:34
And here are the results of disobedience Gods commandments.
A lesbian female 'bishop' of a dead 'church' prepares the way for Sharia law in Sweden.
Zhatsman :"Jesus said LOVE GOD and LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR..NOTHING said about OBEYING??"
Easy to say. Can you give Ch and v? Not OT, please. Christian apologists constantly tell us that Jesus established a new covenant where none of that Old Stuff counted unless he endorsed it.
I cannot agree. Pauline Christianity is derived from the apostles, but you won't get the 'true christianity' by going back to the disciples any more than you will get it by going back to Judaism.
Because after study (and this is my own view, I don't deny) I conclude that the apostles were all observing Jews just as Jesus was himself. They observed the Law and it was Paul and his personal views that wanted to find a way around it.
This method is set out in Romans. He argues that the Law cannot save, only faith in Jesus can save. I haven't time to go through the whole thing but his reasoning is sloppy, contradictory and self -serving, The problems and disappointments and the clash with the apostles over his gentile -friendly version of Messianism are to be found in his aepistles. it is all there to be seen so you don't need to take my word for it.
Even Luke in Acts (for what it is worth) depicts Jesus' followers as observing jews, who have never eaten unclean food and to whom Jewish observances are so important that James suggests that Paul sponsor a circumcision in order to allay suspicion that he is arguing against it. (Acts 24.21 -on). Paul himself (while putting his own side of the debate) shows that he was being supervised by the Jerusalem apostles and thereafter he skips off to the gentile areas and writes sneeringly of 'super apostles' and rants against anyone teaching a Gospel other than the one he teaches.
The Gospels are even worse, because they take Paul's view that the law is a burden to the Jews and a barrier to the easy salvation of Jesus-faith. The Gospels take that and turn it into a hatred of Jews and everything to do with them. Their partiality for Gentiles (Samaritans will do if there isn't a handy centurion around) is just one of the clues (the referencing of the Greek Septuagint as a source rather than the Hebrew is another) that the gospels reflect the views of Pauline Christianity, and shot through with a Jew -hatred that would have shocked Paul.
No, you won't find Christianity in going back to the apostles. You won't even find it in going back to Paul.
You are closer to understanding the Bible than most it would seem because you are aware of the apparent disconnect. Whether or not you have the desire to actually study until you are able to pinpoint the errors, I'm not sure. Mainstream "Christianity" is based almost exclusively on misunderstood teachings of Paul, marcionism and skewed by Roman Catholicism. Addressing this will be a bit of a task so it will not be comprehensive but a starting point if you are inclined to seek.
I may not get around to posting this tonight but I will try.
Eyewitness as in first person is only John and Matthew......... Luke and Mark are not written in first person
Dear live,
Luke 1:1-3 outlines that Luke is just giving hearsay accounts. Who Luke is, is another question. It is apparent that Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, and of the Roman Catholic church, deemed him reliable, but then that could be seen as a negative instead of a positive. I can see historical value in Luke, if one takes it the light of being inconsistent hearsay from questionable sources.
Oh, nice. Another Christian extremist making false claims (certain Christians want to bring Sharia law to the U.S.) and claiming everyone who doesn't believe exactly as they do is a hell-bound anti-Christ
Eyewitness as in first person is only John and Matthew......... Luke and Mark are not written in first person
It doesn't matter, since they gospels don't stand up as either eyewitness testimony or reliable third -person reporting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john233
Sure, I can use just the NT.
Ok. Ch and v please. (re: Zhatsman :"Jesus said LOVE GOD and LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR..NOTHING said about OBEYING??"
...
Originally Posted by john233 Oh he does. As does the rest of the Bible)
ah..
Matthew 7:21 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:24 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Ok. That's close enough to requiring obedience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john233
You are closer to understanding the Bible than most it would seem because you are aware of the apparent disconnect. Whether or not you have the desire to actually study until you are able to pinpoint the errors, I'm not sure. Mainstream "Christianity" is based almost exclusively on misunderstood teachings of Paul, marcionism and skewed by Roman Catholicism. Addressing this will be a bit of a task so it will not be comprehensive but a starting point if you are inclined to seek.
I may not get around to posting this tonight but I will try.
I do indeed have the desire to not only pinpoint the 'errors' but see what they tell about how the Gospels were written and why.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-13-2015 at 06:58 PM..
Says you, but what is there about you than makes you think you are a reliable witness?
Were you there?
What makes you think they are reliable witnesses (or reporters) and never mind the glaring discreapancies and contradictions (which is why I say they don't stack up) were you there ?
Zhatsman :"Jesus said LOVE GOD and LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR..NOTHING said about OBEYING??"
Easy to say. Can you give Ch and v? Not OT, please. Christian apologists constantly tell us that Jesus established a new covenant where none of that Old Stuff counted unless he endorsed it.
That creates huge problems for those apologists. 99.9% of the OT is rendered null and void by the TWO greatest commandments Jesus gave--those being LOVE your Neighbor (which Christ pointed out must happen FIRST since we cannot love God--whom we have not seen-- when we deny our neighbor who we see everyday.
The apologists then get all snitty when they start whining LOVE and GRACE is not enough--what they really mean is -- HOW CAN IT BE SO DAMN EASY? What do you mean it is all about LOVE? NO, it has to involve some great act of heroism..some great defiance of the social norms..WE ARE TO BE HATED..if the world likes us we are not doing God's will---yada yada yada...
Just because a few million evangelical fundies have it WRONG, doesn't mean the rest of us must accept their fuzzy theology. Remember, there was a time when even fundie think was publicly condemned as being WRONG and the current progressive mindset was not only in line with societal beliefs, they WERE believed by the 99%. Belief systems are like food, clothes and music--One day they are HOT, the next they are NOT.
We can take the two commandments to LOVE and run with them, or we can get caught up in all the dogma and argue it takes MORE than love--that it takes more than feeding the hungry, housing the homeless or caring for the sick..may be it does take more--but isn't that between each of us and "GOD?"
Who are we to demand others PROVE their commitment? Who are we to demand they live by our interpretation of God's Laws?
Those who still cling to a god-in-the-tiny-box of FEAR, JEALOUSY, and VENGEANCE are terrified they will be held accountable for others perceived sins. This is why they feel compelled to create christian Sharia Law..to justify their zealousness. This is why the proselytize unto ANNOYANCE because they need to stand blameless before their god and say they too tried to save the world (because Jesus just wasn't enough) and that now they DESERVE a throne to sit next to Jesus and judge the others during this fantasy 1,000 year reign.
For the EF, common sense is LOST. All that matters is doing what they have been told is god's will and they ONLY do it as a means unto an end--REWARDS in heaven.
All the while, ignoring the message of Christ--LOVE, because ALL the laws of the prophets ride on this one word--this is the WORD OF GOD---LOVE..
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Can you give Ch and v? Not OT, please.
Christian apologists constantly tell us that Jesus established a new covenant where none of that Old Stuff counted unless he endorsed it.
(re: Zhatsman :"Jesus said LOVE GOD and LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR..NOTHING said about OBEYING??"