A Bald-Faced Contradiction in Paul's Writings? (Tanakh, tradition, churches, Deuteronomy)

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser

There are NO contradictions in the Bible, only confused people who don't understand that Jews under the law and Gentiles under grace had what looked like contradictory messages........but weren't. The law required FAITH AND WORKS while grace was faith in Christ alone with the Savior completing all the work on the cross.

The Jews who were under the yoke of the law for centuries absolutely hated the message of grace, even though the same Savior was the author of both. The Jews realized if Jesus had removed the sin issue and the Temple and its sacrifices were no longer needed, their way of life would change forever.

The same issues EXACTLY are still the same today.......must you obey the law to be saved or is FAITH + NOTHING what's required today. How you answer that question determines your destiny. Most get hooked on the pride of works and try to justify a salvation through their works, if that doesn't work they see grace as a fall back position to bail them out.

Grace is not just a good idea.....it is THE way to be saved today with nothing added to the gospel given to Paul in 1Corinthians 15: 1-4

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

If you make a small thing out of the cross and trample it underfoot, those people will never see heaven.......the work has been done 100% by Jesus.........accept it and live under grace and know the cross changed everything............

Faith only teaches you WHAT to think, not HOW to think

[TRANSPONDER]

Thank you. There is a kind of Post where you realize that there is no kind of argument, just a denouncing of infidels and heretics.

[Pinetop]

The passage explains itself, it accuses the Jews of failing to observe Torah after Paul had accused Gentiles of their flaws in chapter 1. So, the Jews need not be uppity about Gentile failures, they have their own problems.

The passage down to verse 24 explains that no Jew could "do the law", all they did was hear it. If you could be a "doer of the law" in it's entirety, you would be righteous, which is what Christ did for the Jews and humanity.

Only a perfect human could "do the law" is the point. Works of Torah by flawed humans is a failure, that's Paul's point about faith and Torah.

This is a fairly easy passage.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Romans 1 thru 3 proves all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Then Paul shows the reason in 5:12 and the solution to the whole problem in 5:18,19. It's not hard. One just has to have one's eyes opened by God.

I don't think the problem is having one's eyes opened by G-d, I think the problem is that it is a question of truth or genuineness...For an example, take the followers of David Koresh, they obviously believed what he was telling them otherwise they would not have followed him and put up a showdown with the FEDs...Anyone that intelligence can read and understand, that is not the problem...Most people believe, because they read, Cristopher Columbus discovered America, that it is true, however, with research one finds that it is not true...

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

Quite so. Christians (following Paul) believe that Jesus arrived and did away with all that in a 'New' Covenant.

Well, according to Jeremiah 31, do you see anything in here that relates to Gentiles?...


1.So says the Lord: In the wilderness, the people who had escaped the sword found favor; He [therefore] went to give Israel their resting place. א.כֹּה אָמַר יְהֹוָה מָצָא חֵן בַּמִּדְבָּר עַם שְׂרִידֵי חָרֶב הָלוֹךְ לְהַרְגִּיעוֹ יִשְׂרָאֵל:

2.From long ago, the Lord appeared to me; With everlasting love have I loved you; therefore have I drawn you to Me with loving-kindness. ב.מֵרָחוֹק יְהֹוָה נִרְאָה לִי וְאַהֲבַת עוֹלָם אֲהַבְתִּיךְ עַל כֵּן מְשַׁכְתִּיךְ חָסֶד:

3.Yet again will I rebuild you, then you shall be built, O virgin of Israel; yet again shall you be adorned with your tabrets, and you shall go out with the dances of those who make merry. ג.עוֹד אֶבְנֵךְ וְנִבְנֵית בְּתוּלַת יִשְׂרָאֵל עוֹד תַּעְדִּי תֻפַּיִךְ וְיָצָאת בִּמְחוֹל מְשַׂחֲקִים:

4.Yet again shall you plant vineyards on the mountains of Samaria, indeed planters shall plant [them] and redeem [them]. ד.עוֹד תִּטְּעִי כְרָמִים בְּהָרֵי שֹׁמְרוֹן נָטְעוּ נֹטְעִים וְחִלֵּלוּ:

5.For there is a day, the watchers shall call on the mountains of Ephraim; Rise! Let us go up to Zion, to the Lord, our God. ה.כִּי יֶשׁ יוֹם קָרְאוּ נֹצְרִים בְּהַר אֶפְרָיִם קוּמוּ וְנַעֲלֶה צִיּוֹן אֶל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ:

6.For so says the Lord to Jacob, "Sing [with] joy and shout at the head of the nations, make it heard, praise, and say, 'O Lord, help Your people, the remnant of Israel!' " ו.כִּי כֹה | אָמַר יְהֹוָה רָנּוּ לְיַעֲקֹב שִׁמְחָה וְצַהֲלוּ בְּרֹאשׁ הַגּוֹיִם הַשְׁמִיעוּ הַלְלוּ וְאִמְרוּ הוֹשַׁע יְהֹוָה אֶת עַמְּךָ אֵת שְׁאֵרִית יִשְׂרָאֵל:

7.Behold I bring them from the north country and gather them from the uttermost ends of the earth, the blind and the lame amongst them, the woman with child and she who travails with child all together; a great company shall they return there. ז.הִנְנִי מֵבִיא אוֹתָם מֵאֶרֶץ צָפוֹן וְקִבַּצְתִּים מִיַּרְכְּתֵי אָרֶץ בָּם עִוֵּר וּפִסֵּחַ הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת יַחְדָּו קָהָל גָּדוֹל יָשׁוּבוּ הֵנָּה:

8.With weeping will they come, and with supplications will I lead them, along brooks of water will I make them go, on a straight road upon which they will not stumble, for I have become a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn. ח.בִּבְכִי יָבֹאוּ וּבְתַחֲנוּנִים אוֹבִילֵם אוֹלִיכֵם אֶל נַחֲלֵי מַיִם בְּדֶרֶךְ יָשָׁר לֹא יִכָּשְׁלוּ בָּהּ כִּי הָיִיתִי לְיִשְׂרָאֵל לְאָב וְאֶפְרַיִם בְּכֹרִי הוּא:

9.Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock. ט.שִׁמְעוּ דְבַר יְהֹוָה גּוֹיִם וְהַגִּידוּ בָאִיִּים מִמֶּרְחָק וְאִמְרוּ מְזָרֵה יִשְׂרָאֵל יְקַבְּצֶנּוּ וּשְׁמָרוֹ כְּרֹעֶה עֶדְרוֹ:

10.For the Lord has redeemed Jacob and has saved him out of the hand of him who is stronger than he. י.כִּי פָדָה יְהֹוָה אֶת יַעֲקֹב וּגְאָלוֹ מִיַּד חָזָק מִמֶּנּוּ:

11.And they shall come and jubilate on the height of Zion, and they will stream to the goodness of the Lord, over corn, wine, and oil, and over sheep and cattle, and their soul shall be like a well-watered garden, and they shall have no further worry at all. יא.וּבָאוּ וְרִנְּנוּ בִמְרוֹם צִיּוֹן וְנָהֲרוּ אֶל טוּב יְהֹוָה עַל דָּגָן וְעַל תִּירֹשׁ וְעַל יִצְהָר וְעַל בְּנֵי צֹאן וּבָקָר וְהָיְתָה נַפְשָׁם כְּגַן רָוֶה וְלֹא יוֹסִיפוּ לְדַאֲבָה עוֹד:

12.Then shall the virgin rejoice in the round dance with music, and the young men and the old men together, and I will turn their mourning into joy and will comfort them and make them rejoice from their sorrow. יב.אָז תִּשְׂמַח בְּתוּלָה בְּמָחוֹל וּבַחֻרִים וּזְקֵנִים יַחְדָּו וְהָפַכְתִּי אֶבְלָם לְשָׂשׂוֹן וְנִחַמְתִּים וְשִׂמַּחְתִּים מִיגוֹנָם:

13.And I will refresh the soul of the priests with fat, and My people-they will be satisfied with My goodness, is the word of the Lord. יג.וְרִוֵּיתִי נֶפֶשׁ הַכֹּהֲנִים דָּשֶׁן וְעַמִּי אֶת טוּבִי יִשְׂבָּעוּ נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

14.So says the Lord: A voice is heard on high, lamentation, bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, she refuses to be comforted for her children for they are not. יד.כֹּה | אָמַר יְהֹוָה קוֹל בְּרָמָה נִשְׁמָע נְהִי בְּכִי תַמְרוּרִים רָחֵל מְבַכָּה עַל בָּנֶיהָ מֵאֲנָה לְהִנָּחֵם עַל בָּנֶיהָ כִּי אֵינֶנּוּ:

15.So says the Lord: Refrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for there is reward for your work, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. טו.כֹּה | אָמַר יְהֹוָה מִנְעִי קוֹלֵךְ מִבֶּכִי וְעֵינַיִךְ מִדִּמְעָה כִּי יֵשׁ שָׂכָר לִפְעֻלָּתֵךְ נְאֻם יְהֹוָה וְשָׁבוּ מֵאֶרֶץ אוֹיֵב:

16.And there is hope for your future, says the Lord, and the children shall return to their own border. טז.וְיֵשׁ תִּקְוָה לְאַחֲרִיתֵךְ נְאֻם יְהֹוָה וְשָׁבוּ בָנִים לִגְבוּלָם:

17.I have indeed heard Ephraim complaining, [saying,] "You have chastised me, and I was chastised as an ungoaded calf, O lead me back, and I will return, for You are the Lord, my God. יז.שָׁמוֹעַ שָׁמַעְתִּי אֶפְרַיִם מִתְנוֹדֵד יִסַּרְתַּנִי וָאִוָּסֵר כְּעֵגֶל לֹא לֻמָּד הֲשִׁבֵנִי וְאָשׁוּבָה כִּי אַתָּה יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי:

18.For after my return I have completely changed my mind, and after I had been brought to know myself, I smote upon my thigh; I was ashamed, yea I stood confounded, for I bore the reproach of my youth." יח.כִּי אַחֲרֵי שׁוּבִי נִחַמְתִּי וְאַחֲרֵי הִוָּדְעִי סָפַקְתִּי עַל יָרֵךְ בֹּשְׁתִּי וְגַם נִכְלַמְתִּי כִּי נָשָׂאתִי חֶרְפַּת נְעוּרָי:

19."Is Ephraim a son who is dear to Me? Is he a child who is dandled? For whenever I speak of him, I still remember him: therefore, My very innards are agitated for him; I will surely have compassion on him," says the Lord. יט.הֲבֵן יַקִּיר לִי אֶפְרַיִם אִם יֶלֶד שַׁעֲשׁוּעִים כִּי מִדֵּי דַבְּרִי בּוֹ זָכֹר אֶזְכְּרֶנּוּ עוֹד עַל כֵּן הָמוּ מֵעַי לוֹ רַחֵם אֲרַחֲמֶנּוּ נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

20.Set up markers for yourself, place small palms for yourself, put your heart to the highway, the road upon which you went. Return, O virgin of Israel, return to these your cities. כ.הַצִּיבִי לָךְ צִיֻּנִים שִׂמִי לָךְ תַּמְרוּרִים שִׁתִי לִבֵּךְ לַמְסִלָּה דֶּרֶךְ הָלָכְתְּ (כתיב הָלָכְתְּי) שׁוּבִי בְּתוּלַת יִשְׂרָאֵל שֻׁבִי אֶל עָרַיִךְ אֵלֶּה:

21.How long will you hide, O backsliding daughter? For the Lord has created something new on the earth, a woman shall go after a man. כא.עַד מָתַי תִּתְחַמָּקִין הַבַּת הַשּׁוֹבֵבָה כִּי בָרָא יְהֹוָה חֲדָשָׁה בָּאָרֶץ נְקֵבָה תְּסוֹבֵב גָּבֶר:

22.So said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; They shall yet say this thing in the land of Judah and in its cities when I return their captivity; May the Lord bless You, dwelling of righteousness, holy mount. כב.כֹּה אָמַר יְהֹוָה צְבָאוֹת אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל עוֹד יֹאמְרוּ אֶת הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה בְּאֶרֶץ יְהוּדָה וּבְעָרָיו בְּשׁוּבִי אֶת שְׁבוּתָם יְבָרֶכְךָ יְהֹוָה נְוֵה צֶדֶק הַר הַקֹּדֶשׁ:

23.And Judah shall dwell therein and [in] all its cities together, farmers and those who travel with flocks. כג.וְיָשְׁבוּ בָהּ יְהוּדָה וְכָל עָרָיו יַחְדָּו אִכָּרִים וְנָסְעוּ בָּעֵדֶר:

24.For I have sated the faint soul, and every worried soul have I replenished. כד.כִּי הִרְוֵיתִי נֶפֶשׁ עֲיֵפָה וְכָל נֶפֶשׁ דָּאֲבָה מִלֵּאתִי:

25.Thereupon, I awoke and I had seen, and my sleep was pleasant to me. כה.עַל זֹאת הֱקִיצֹתִי וָאֶרְאֶה וּשְׁנָתִי עָרְבָה לִּי:

26.Behold days are coming, says the Lord, and I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with seed of man and seed of beasts. כו.הִנֵּה יָמִים בָּאִים נְאֻם יְהֹוָה וְזָרַעְתִּי אֶת בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֶת בֵּית יְהוּדָה זֶרַע אָדָם וְזֶרַע בְּהֵמָה:

27.And it shall be, as I have watched over them to uproot and to break down, to demolish and to destroy and to afflict, so will I watch over them to build and to plant, says the Lord. כז.וְהָיָה כַּאֲשֶׁר שָׁקַדְתִּי עֲלֵיהֶם לִנְתוֹשׁ וְלִנְתוֹץ וְלַהֲרֹס וּלְהַאֲבִיד וּלְהָרֵעַ כֵּן אֶשְׁקֹד עֲלֵיהֶם לִבְנוֹת וְלִנְטוֹעַ נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

28.In those days, they shall no longer say, "Fathers have eaten unripe grapes, and the teeth of the children shall be set on edge." כח.בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם לֹא יֹאמְרוּ עוֹד אָבוֹת אָכְלוּ בֹסֶר וְשִׁנֵּי בָנִים תִּקְהֶינָה:

29.But each man shall die for his iniquity; whoever eats the unripe grapes- his teeth shall be set on edge. כט.כִּי אִם אִישׁ בַּעֲו*ֹנוֹ יָמוּת כָּל הָאָדָם הָאֹכֵל הַבֹּסֶר תִּקְהֶינָה שִׁנָּיו:


30 through 32 is the important telltale verses that it has nothing to do with the Gentiles or a "spiritual Israel" as the coined term goes, but has to do with the houses of Israel and Judah...So, I ask, where does Christianity get off claiming this for themselves?...

30.Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant. ל.הִנֵּה יָמִים בָּאִים נְאֻם יְהֹוָה וְכָרַתִּי אֶת בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֶת בֵּית יְהוּדָה בְּרִית חֲדָשָׁה:

31.Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord. לא.לֹא כַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר כָּרַתִּי אֶת אֲבוֹתָם בְּיוֹם הֶחֱזִיקִי בְיָדָם לְהוֹצִיאָם מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם אֲשֶׁר הֵמָּה הֵפֵרוּ אֶת בְּרִיתִי וְאָנֹכִי בָּעַלְתִּי בָם נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

32.For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people. לב.כִּי זֹאת הַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר אֶכְרֹת אֶת בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל אַחֲרֵי הַיָּמִים הָהֵם נְאֻם יְהֹוָה נָתַתִּי אֶת תּוֹרָתִי בְּקִרְבָּם וְעַל לִבָּם אֶכְתֳּבֶנָּה וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵאלֹהִים וְהֵמָּה יִהְיוּ לִי לְעָם:

33.And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember. לג.וְלֹא יְלַמְּדוּ עוֹד אִישׁ אֶת רֵעֵהוּ וְאִישׁ אֶת אָחִיו לֵאמֹר דְּעוּ אֶת יְהֹוָה כִּי כוּלָּם יֵדְעוּ אוֹתִי לְמִקְּטַנָּם וְעַד גְּדוֹלָם נְאֻם יְהֹוָה כִּי אֶסְלַח לַעֲו*ֹנָם וּלְחַטָּאתָם לֹא אֶזְכָּר עוֹד:

34.So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name. לד.כֹּה | אָמַר יְהֹוָה נֹתֵן שֶׁמֶשׁ לְאוֹר יוֹמָם חֻקֹּת יָרֵחַ וְכוֹכָבִים לְאוֹר לָיְלָה רֹגַע הַיָּם וַיֶּהֱמוּ גַלָּיו יְהֹוָה צְבָאוֹת שְׁמוֹ:

35.If these laws depart from before Me, says the Lord, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time. לה.אִם יָמֻשׁוּ הַחֻקִּים הָאֵלֶּה מִלְּפָנַי נְאֻם יְהֹוָה גַּם זֶרַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יִשְׁבְּתוּ מִהְיוֹת גּוֹי לְפָנַי כָּל הַיָּמִים:

The Laws have not departed from G-d, because Israel is still a Nation, always has been...They cannot be wiped out...


36.So said the Lord: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says the Lord. לו.כֹּה | אָמַר יְהֹוָה אִם יִמַּדּוּ שָׁמַיִם מִלְמַעְלָה וְיֵחָקְרוּ מוֹסְדֵי אֶרֶץ לְמָטָּה גַּם אֲנִי אֶמְאַס בְּכָל זֶרַע יִשְׂרָאֵל עַל כָּל אֲשֶׁר עָשׂוּ נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

37.Behold days are coming, says the Lord, and the city shall be built to the Lord, from the tower of Hananel until the gate of the corner. לז.הִנֵּה יָמִים ( בָּאִים קרי ולא כתיב ) נְאֻם יְהֹוָה וְנִבְנְתָה הָעִיר לַיהֹוָה מִמִּגְדַּל חֲנַנְאֵל עַד שַׁעַר הַפִּנָּה:

38.And the measuring line shall go out further opposite it upon the hill of Gareb, and it shall turn to Goah. לח.וְיָצָא עוֹד קַו (כתיב קַוה) הַמִּדָּה נֶגְדּוֹ עַל גִּבְעַת גָּרֵב וְנָסַב גֹּעָתָה:

39.And the whole valley of the dead bodies and the ash and all the fields until the Kidron Valley, until the corner of the Horse Gate to the east, shall be holy to the Lord; it shall never again be uprooted or torn down forever.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Pinetop

The passage explains itself, it accuses the Jews of failing to observe Torah after Paul had accused Gentiles of their flaws in chapter 1. So, the Jews need not be uppity about Gentile failures, they have their own problems.

The passage down to verse 24 explains that no Jew could "do the law", all they did was hear it. If you could be a "doer of the law" in it's entirety, you would be righteous, which is what Christ did for the Jews and humanity.

Only a perfect human could "do the law" is the point. Works of Torah by flawed humans is a failure, that's Paul's point about faith and Torah.

This is a fairly easy passage.

There were a few Jews in the TNK that "walked in all the ways of the Lord", soooo...

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

Read pages one thru three. I figured this thread would be over by the end of page three. My guess is you did not read said pages.

They never do. We answer the questions, bow out of the discussion thinking it's over, and they rant on and on and on and on and on......then declare victory 27 pages later.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Well Euse my Fundy friend.... that is a tell tale sign of a fundy...........i(a former fully paid up fundy) saw that i was biased through ingrained beliefs and repented from it. The demons of fundamentalism have been exorcised. I personally cannot be bothered to go to the lengths Thrill does to get you fundies to see that the scripture are not inerrant or infallible, but i understand why he does and for the best part does a good job, although i think he like you has missed the mark on this thread.

You could be right to an extent, pcamps. I did expunge the verse 12 of Chap 2 Romans from the text and found no change in what Paul was trying to explain. The sentence, "for not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law shall be justified in the sight of God" is totally unnecessary when Paul is trying to explain that those who live by the law shall perish by the law--reminiscent of Jesus' "Those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword". But frankly Paul wanders into such convoluted territory in Romans that only the most learned of scholars can really comprehend what he's saying. The unwashed ignorant peasant pagans Paul was trying to appeal to wouldn't have had a clue what he was trying to explain because they weren't Jewish and didn't have the first inkling of what following the Jewish law entailed.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

You could be right to an extent, pcamps. I did expunge the verse 12 of Chap 2 Romans from the text and found no change in what Paul was trying to explain. The sentence, "for not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law shall be justified in the sight of God" is totally unnecessary when Paul is trying to explain that those who live by the law shall perish by the law--reminiscent of Jesus' "Those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword". But frankly Paul wanders into such convoluted territory in Romans that only the most learned of scholars can really comprehend what he's saying. The unwashed ignorant peasant pagans Paul was trying to appeal to wouldn't have had a clue what he was trying to explain because they weren't Jewish and didn't have the first inkling of what following the Jewish law entailed.

It's been explained to you by me, and by others. Why are you still posting on this? Have you read the 1st 6 chapters of Romans in context like I suggested? It's not rocket science. It's easily understood if you read it in context.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by OzzyRules

Well, I went ahead and tried. But to quote Benjamin Franklin, I find Christian doctrine to be "unintelligible".

I find your statement funny in an ironic sort of way. It's the reason so many millions of former Christians are calling it quits--the dang religion is just too unintelligible for any straight-thinking person in today's educated society to comprehend. Look at me; I post a simple statement, "These two sentences looks like a contradiction" and we get pages and pages of convoluted explanation and Bible quotes just on one post pointing out the error of my thinking. Any religion that needs an encyclopedia-length response to explain a simple error in thinking is a religion destined for the trash heap of history.

Originally Posted by Vizio

It's been explained to you by me, and by others. Why are you still posting on this? Have you read the 1st 6 chapters of Romans in context like I suggested? It's not rocket science. It's easily understood if you read it in context.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, Vizio. I've read Romans hundreds of times when I was a Christian and know it backwards and forwards. Like Revelation it is so convoluted, "For it is not...but...for the Gentiles...for the way of the righteous is, but....for the law brings death, but.....for---but, for...but, for...but, for...it's just all too much for the average reader. This is why 98% of Christians rarely crack a Bible and when they do it's at Christmas to recite the nativity story of Jesus in the manger and the wise men and all that. Romans is for long bearded 80-year-old scholars who spend their last days pouring over this stuff like it's God himself talking to them. It's not, it's just convoluted dogma so complex the average Christian wouldn't and doesn't get within a hundreds yards of and wouldn't be able to comprehend the first thing about it even if they did.