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I find your statement funny in an ironic sort of way. It's the reason so many millions of former Christians are calling it quits--the dang religion is just too unintelligible for any straight-thinking person in today's educated society to comprehend. Look at me; I post a simple statement, "These two sentences looks like a contradiction" and we get pages and pages of convoluted explanation and Bible quotes just on one post pointing out the error of my thinking. Any religion that needs an encyclopedia-length response to explain a simple error in thinking is a religion destined for the trash heap of history.
It was settled by page 3....but you keep posting for some reason. Maybe it's not Christianity that is the issue...maybe it's you.
You must have missed that YHWH elected Abram to be a "light to the GENTILES and a blessing to all the families of the earth". It's understood by ancient Jews that YHWH would restore Israel AND reclaim the nations for Himself.
"Jacob is MY portion and the nations are My inheritance".
Jeremiah knew this.
In Exodus a "mixed multitude of humanity left Egypt" not just Jews. Gentiles are to be consider the "congregation of Israel" if they observe Passover, so Israel was never, not the first day, 100% Jewish. Israel doesn't mean just ethnic Jews, not in the Old or New Testament. Never did mean that. It means " a human who wrestles with YHWH and prevails", has nothing to do with who your genes came from, not then,not now. Go look up what Israel means.
It is terribly easy to lose track of the argument and leapfrog from one point to anouther hardly relevant one and get someone debating something irrelevant
In reply to
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 Circumcision is the sign of the covenant between G-d and His people...
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Quite so. Christians (following Paul) believe that Jesus arrived and did away with all that in a 'New' Covenant.
and finally:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Well, according to Jeremiah 31, do you see anything in here that relates to Gentiles?...
I have no idea what you are trying to prove here by a bit of Quotemined Jeremiah. I have a ton of Ot and NT references to the gentiles being taught Godfaith. But the point I am making is that Jesus arrived and replaced the OT Law by his own exhortations which supposedly represented the New message God was sending.
The unwashed ignorant peasant pagans Paul was trying to appeal to wouldn't have had a clue what he was trying to explain because they weren't Jewish and didn't have the first inkling of what following the Jewish law entailed.
Actually, the policy of the initial Assembly, for a Gentile, was to be circumcised and observe Torah, obviously this is what they did until Paul had an issue with it, you know, the one who claims that he met Jesus on the road to Damascus, the one that was never directly taught by Jesus, the one who was never Jesus' disciple...The one who, I believe, Genesis 49:27 is speaking about:
27Benjamin is a wolf, he will prey; in the morning he will devour plunder, and in the evening he will divide the spoil."
Php 3:1 As to the rest, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord; the same things to write to you to me indeed is not tiresome, and for you is sure;
Php 3:2 look to the dogs, look to the evil-workers, look to the concision;
Php 3:3 for we are the circumcision, who by the Spirit are serving God, and glorying in Christ Jesus, and in flesh having no trust,
Php 3:4 though I also have cause of trust in flesh. If any other one doth think to have trust in flesh, I more;
Php 3:5 circumcision on the eighth day! of the race of Israel! of the tribe of Benjamin! a Hebrew of Hebrews! according to law a Pharisee!
He claims according to Law, he is a Pharisee, not necessarily educated properly as one...Halacha, which sometimes is translated as Law, means to go, to walk, to travel...
The word "halakhah" is usually translated as "Jewish Law," although a more literal (and more appropriate) translation might be "the path that one walks." The word is derived from the Hebrew root Hei-Lamed-Kaf, meaning to go, to walk or to travel. - Judaism 101: Halakhah: Jewish Law
Judaism is not just a set of beliefs about G-d, man and the universe. Judaism is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life: what you do when you wake up in the morning, what you can and cannot eat, what you can and cannot wear, how to groom yourself, how to conduct business, who you can marry, how to observe the holidays and Shabbat, and perhaps most important, how to treat G-d, other people, and animals. This set of rules and practices is known as halakhah. - Judaism 101: Halakhah: Jewish Law
Php 3:6 according to zeal persecuting the assembly! according to righteousness that is in law becoming blameless!
Php 3:7 But what things were to me gains, these I have counted, because of the Christ, loss;
Php 3:8 yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,
When did the Jews start persecuting the Christians and putting them out of the Synagogues?...The sect was obviously following Judaism, including any Gentile converts, otherwise they would not have been in the Synagogues to begin with in order for the Jews to put them out...I would suspect that all this began to occur soon after Paul began to have a noticeable following...He could have been the "David Koresh" of his generation...Things seemed to be very Jewish, I think in Acts, up till chapter 15 when Paul was at the Jerusalem council and then afterward usurped Peter's position as Apostle to the Nations...
You must have missed that YHWH elected Abram to be a "light to the GENTILES and a blessing to all the families of the earth". It's understood by ancient Jews that YHWH would restore Israel AND reclaim the nations for Himself.
"Jacob is MY portion and the nations are My inheritance".
Jeremiah knew this.
In Exodus a "mixed multitude of humanity left Egypt" not just Jews. Gentiles are to be consider the "congregation of Israel" if they observe Passover, so Israel was never, not the first day, 100% Jewish. Israel doesn't mean just ethnic Jews, not in the Old or New Testament. Never did mean that. It means " a human who wrestles with YHWH and prevails", has nothing to do with who your genes came from, not then,not now. Go look up what Israel means.
Dear pine,
Abraham, meaning father of nations, who was given the covenant of circumcision which applied to his slaves as well as his kin. It was Antiochus, and his ilk through to Hadrian, along with the staff, Paul, described as Favor, which banned circumcision, or in the case of "Favor" the "staff" taken to "pasture the flock doomed to slaughter (Ze 11:7), who will "break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples" (Ze 11:10). The "flock doomed to slaughter" is the "Christian" church which is built upon the two staffs taken to "pasture the flock doomed to slaughter"/"Christian" church, which were Peter "the worthless shepherd" (Zech 11:17) and Paul, the teacher of the false gospel of grace (being in God's Favor).
If the "foreigners" want to "joint themselves to the lord", they are required to hold "fast my covenant" and keep from profaning the Sabbath" (Is 56:6) The "Gentiles" you refer to seem to fall short on everything but hype.
You must have missed that YHWH elected Abram to be a "light to the GENTILES and a blessing to all the families of the earth". It's understood by ancient Jews that YHWH would restore Israel AND reclaim the nations for Himself.
I don't think that I missed anything...Where does it say "light to the Gentiles" here?...
Genesis 12:
1.And the Lord said to Abram, "Go forth from your land and from your birthplace and from your father's house, to the land that I will show you.
2.And I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will aggrandize your name, and [you shall] be a blessing.
3.And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you."
4.And Abram went, as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him, and Abram was seventy five years old when he left Haran.
5.And Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his brother's son, and all their possessions that they had acquired, and the souls they had acquired in Haran, and they went to go to the land of Canaan, and they came to the land of Canaan.
6.And Abram passed through the land, until the place of Shechem, until the plain of Moreh, and the Canaanites were then in the land.
7.And the Lord appeared to Abram, and He said, "To your seed I will give this land," and there he built an altar to the Lord, Who had appeared to him.
Quote:
"Jacob is MY portion and the nations are My inheritance".
You mean this?...
Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 32
9.Because the Lord's portion is His people Jacob, the lot of His inheritance.
States nothing about the Nations...So, I don't know where you are getting that from...
Quote:
Jeremiah knew this.
In Exodus a "mixed multitude of humanity left Egypt" not just Jews. Gentiles are to be consider the "congregation of Israel" if they observe Passover, so Israel was never, not the first day, 100% Jewish. Israel doesn't mean just ethnic Jews, not in the Old or New Testament. Never did mean that. It means " a human who wrestles with YHWH and prevails", has nothing to do with who your genes came from, not then,not now. Go look up what Israel means.
I notice that you state something about the Exodus but do not include references, so where are you getting this from?...
You are a predestinarian, aren't you?...
Something for you to read and keep in in mind:
Malachi 3:
6 For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.
Numbers 23:
19 God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?
I Chronicles 28:
4.But the Lord God of Israel chose me out of the entire house of my father to become king over Israel forever, for He chose Judah for a ruler and in Judah, my father's house, and among my father's sons, He desired me to make me reign over all Israel.
5.And of all my sons-for the Lord gave me many sons-He chose my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.
6.And He said to me, 'Your son Solomon, he shall build My House and My Courts, for I have chosen him to me as a son, and I shall be to him as a father.
Interesting, here is another person, besides David, that G-d calls "His Son"...Funny, Christians claim that Jesus was the only one that G-d claimed as a son...
7.And I shall establish his kingdom for eternity, if he strengthens himself to perform My commandments and My ordinances as of this day.'
Gentiles
Level: Basic
The Torah maintains that the righteous Gentiles of all nations (those observing the Seven Laws of Noah, listed below) have a place in the World to Come. But not all religious Gentiles earn eternal life by virtue of observing their religion:
•While it is recognized that Moslems worship the same God that we do (though calling him Allah, He is the same God of Israel), even those who follow the tenets of their religion cannot be considered righteous in the eyes of God, because they do not accept that the Written Torah in the hands of the Jews today is the original Torah handed down by God and they do not accept the Seven Laws of Noah as binding on them.
•While the Christians do generally accept the Hebrew Bible as truly from God, many of them (those who accept the so-called divinity of Jesus) are idolaters according to the Torah, punishable by death, and certainly will not enjoy the World to Come. But it is not just being a member of a denomination in which the majority are believers in the Trinity that is idolatry, but personal idolatrous practice, whatever the individual's affiliation.
Contrary to popular belief, the Torah does not maintain that Jews are necessarily better than other people simply because they are Jews. Although we are God's chosen people, we do not believe that God chose the Jews because of any inherent superiority. According to a story in the Talmud, God offered the Torah to all the nations of the earth, and the Jews were the only ones who accepted it. According to another story, the Jews were offered the Torah last, and accepted it only because God held a mountain over their heads! Another traditional story suggests that God chose the Jews because they were the lowliest of nations, and their success would be attributed to God's might rather than their own ability. Clearly, these are not the ideas of a people who think they are inherently better than other nations.
Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of God, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that we received from God by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus God will punish Jews for doing many things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.
The Seven Laws of Noah
According to Torah tradition, God gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood.
These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are learned by tradition but also suggested in Genesis Chapter 9, and are as follows:
1.not to commit idolatry
2.not to commit blasphemy
3.not to commit murder
4.not to have forbidden sexual relations
5.not to commit theft
6.not to eat flesh cut from a living animal
7.to establish courts of justice to punish violators of the other six laws.
These commandments may seem fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. But according to the Torah only those Gentiles who observe these laws because God commanded them in His Torah will enjoy life in the World to Come: If they observe them just because they seem reasonable or because they think that God commanded them in some way other than in the Torah, they might as well not obey them so far as a part in the World to Come is concerned.
The Noahic commandments are binding on all people, because all people are descended from Noah and his family. The 613 mitzvot of the Torah, on the other hand, are only binding on the descendants of those who accepted the commandments at Sinai and upon those who take on the yoke of the commandments voluntarily (by conversion). Some say that the Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws. Some European rabbis (presumably because of fear of reprisal from their Christian neighbors, famous for their violence to Jews) have gone so far as to say that worshipping God in the form of a man constitutes idolatry for a Jew punishable by death, but the Trinitarian Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry. In truth, any idolatry for which a Jew is punishable by death is also punishable by death for non-Jews, including the worship of a man as a god.
We plan to provide on this site a full exposition of Seven Laws, including many details that could not be guessed from the listing above.
It is terribly easy to lose track of the argument and leapfrog from one point to anouther hardly relevant one and get someone debating something irrelevant
In reply to
[/i]
and finally:
I have no idea what you are trying to prove here by a bit of Quotemined Jeremiah. I have a ton of Ot and NT references to the gentiles being taught Godfaith. But the point I am making is that Jesus arrived and replaced the OT Law by his own exhortations which supposedly represented the New message God was sending.
Yeah, I do jump around, don't I?...I just got a lot on my mind and it is all rushing to get out and get settled...
What I am trying to prove, by Jeremiah, is that G-d stated that this New Covenant would be made with the houses of Judah and Israel, not the Gentiles, as for the Gentiles, read Isaiah 56, it details the conditional blessings for the Gentiles...And I wasn't really trying to "quotemine", however, Christians constantly refer to that particular verse and equate that with the Christian New Testament and totally miss the fact that it states that this New Covenant will be with the Jews, not the Gentiles...And then when you point the relevant passages out to them that clearly say House of Judah and House of Israel, they come off with, "Oh, that is speaking about "spiritual Israel" which includes Jews and Gentiles...IOW, the whole world...But one cannot come to this unless one modifies the verses to reflect a particular doctrine...And I believe they have with the Christian Old Testament which is different than the TaNaKh or Sefer Torah...
If the "foreigners" want to "joint themselves to the lord", they are required to hold "fast my covenant" and keep from profaning the Sabbath" (Is 56:6) The "Gentiles" you refer to seem to fall short on everything but hype.
I don't know what you follow, but it is a kudo to you that you recognize and understand what Isaiah 56 is stating regarding Gentiles...
Yeah, I do jump around, don't I?...I just got a lot on my mind and it is all rushing to get out and get settled...
What I am trying to prove, by Jeremiah, is that G-d stated that this New Covenant would be made with the houses of Judah and Israel, not the Gentiles, as for the Gentiles, read Isaiah 56, it details the conditional blessings for the Gentiles...And I wasn't really trying to "quotemine", however, Christians constantly refer to that particular verse and equate that with the Christian New Testament and totally miss the fact that it states that this New Covenant will be with the Jews, not the Gentiles...And then when you point the relevant passages out to them that clearly say House of Judah and House of Israel, they come off with, "Oh, that is speaking about "spiritual Israel" which includes Jews and Gentiles...IOW, the whole world...But one cannot come to this unless one modifies the verses to reflect a particular doctrine...And I believe they have with the Christian Old Testament which is different than the TaNaKh or Sefer Torah...
Do you know, I believe we may be on the same page... But this may not be the thread to discus it. This is about Paul's apparent contradiction in judgement by Law for the Jews and by Faith for Gentiles. I think that has been sorted (or it ought to be) but I do think Paul rather shifted his position on this for a good reason - he wanted to be judged on Faith himself, not on the law because he was pretty clearly lax himself and had a go at Peter who had words with him about it.
I might risk a digressive comment on your post in that I believe that Paul created his own mission to the gentiles without the blessing of the apostles and in fact tried to buy his way in by collecting famine relief from his churches (the Judean famine was in the time of Claudius ..45 AD I recall..and queen Berenike -a convert - collected a lot of famine relief herself).
How much the Apostles subscribed to this idea of a New Covenant I can't be sure, but I would risk my pension on not very much.
Paul's thesis was that Jesus by his sacrifice washed out the sin. But that of course did not wash out the Law. That was Paul's own idea argued out in Romans (as I explained) and was designed to make Gentiles God's people without their having to observe the Jewish Law. That is what all the subsequent wrangling was about.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-16-2015 at 05:19 PM..
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But this may not be the thread to discus it. This is about Paul's apparent contradiction in judgement by Law for the Jews and by Faith for Gentiles. I think that has been sorted (or it ought to be) but I do think Paul rather shifted his position on this for a good reason - he wanted to be judged on Faith himself, not on the law because he was pretty clearly lax himself and had a go at Peter who had words with him about it.
