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The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsaa) is one of the original seven Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in Qumran in 1947. It is the largest (734 cm) and best preserved of all the biblical scrolls, and the only one that is almost complete. The 54 columns contain all 66 chapters of the Hebrew version of the biblical Book of Isaiah. Dating from ca. 125 BCE, it is also one of the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls, some one thousand years older than the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible known to us before the scrolls' discovery. The version of the text is generally in agreement with the Masoretic or traditional version codified in medieval codices, such as the Aleppo Codex, but it contains many variant readings, alternative spellings, scribal errors, and corrections. - http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#53:8
Which is my point. There is no appreciable difference in Isaiah 53 between the so called 'Christian Old Testament' and the Tanakh which follows the Masoretic text. Read Isaiah 53 in the 'Christian Old Testament' and it reads practically the same as the Great Isaiah Scroll which precedes the Masoretic text by a thousand years.
Which is my point. There is no appreciable difference in Isaiah 53 between the so called 'Christian Old Testament' and the Tanakh which follows the Masoretic text. Read Isaiah 53 in the 'Christian Old Testament' and it reads practically the same as the Great Isaiah Scroll.
No it doesn't...Why do you think I know what I know now?...I have read both...I know a lot more than you think, Mike...
No it doesn't...Why do you think I know what I know now?...I have read both...I know a lot more than you think, Mike...
I've already posted the link to the Great Isaiah Scroll so that people can compare it with the 'Christian Old Testament.' They are practically identical.
I've already posted the link to the Great Isaiah Scroll so that people can compare it with the 'Christian Old Testament.' They are practically identical.
I have looked at it and I read Hebrew...The GIS and the MT are in agreement and you state that the TNK is based off of the MT...
People need only click on the scroll which will bring up a bigger scroll which when clicked on brings up the English translation which by the way uses the authoritative version of the biblical Book of Isaiah, as rendered by the Jewish Publication Society in 1917 and published by the American Israeli Cooperative Enterprise. Then simply compare it with the 'Christian Old Testament.' They are practically identical.
People need only click on the scroll which will bring up a bigger scroll which when clicked on brings up the English translation which by the way uses the authoritative version of the biblical Book of Isaiah, as rendered by the Jewish Publication Society in 1917 and published by the American Israeli Cooperative Enterprise. Then simply compare it with the 'Christian Old Testament.' They are practically identical.
Repeating this does not make it true...
I looked at the site I looked at the Hebrew on the Scroll, The TNK does not agree with the COT...
this is what you said, Mike
Quote:
Isaiah 53 in the 'Christian Old Testament' is nearly identical with the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls. If the claim is
made by someone that Isaiah 53 in the 'Christian Old Testament' disagrees with the
Tanakh, then what is actually being said is that Isaiah 53 of the 'Christian
Old Testament' agrees with the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls
against the Masoretic text. Again, the Dead Sea Scrolls are much older than the Masoretic text which is the textual tradition of the Tanakh that Jews read today.
Then you said this
Quote:
Yes, the Great Isaiah Scroll and the Masoretic text are in agreement.
Do you see your self-contradiction here?...
Last edited by Richard1965; 11-03-2015 at 07:37 PM..
I'll put it this way which will make it clearer. The Jewish Tanakh that the Jews read today is the Masoretic text. And the Masoretic text was produced by the Masoretes during the period between the 7th and 10th centuries A.D. The oldest complete copy of the Masoretic text still extant dates to the tenth century A.D.
When people say that the 'Christian Old Testament' is different from the Jewish Tanakh, they are actually saying that the 'Christian Old Testament' is different from the Masoretic text. When the claim is made by people such as yourself that ''For the NT to flow correctly, the OT had to be re-written so that it flows in the direction of the NT.'' (post 12 of this thread), the claim is being made that the 'Christian Old Testament' rewrote what is said in the Masoretic text. Yet there are much older traditions than the Masoretic text such as the Pe****ta (Pets hitta), the Latin Vulgate, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Masoretic text while agreeing in many places with the much older Dead Sea Scrolls, disagrees with the Dead Sea Scrolls in other places. Both the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint which is a Greek translation of a Hebrew text are much older than the Masoretic text. The Hebrew text from which the Septuagint was translated is much older than the Masoretic text. In some places the Dead Sea Scrolls agree with the Masoretic text while in other places the Dead Sea Scrolls agree more closely with the Septuagint. When the New Testament writers quoted the Old Testament they more often quoted the Septuagint.
The Tanakh which the Jews read today is the Masoretic text. But the Masoretic text is but one Hebrew textual tradition. There are much older textual traditions. The 'Christian Old Testament' did not rewrite the Tanakh. If the 'Christian Old Testament' disagrees with the Masoretic text at some point, it simply means that at that point the 'Christian Old Testament' is based on a different textual tradition.
Isaiah 53 in the 'Christian Old Testament' is nearly identical with the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls. If the claim is made by someone that Isaiah 53 in the 'Christian Old Testament' disagrees with the Tanakh, then what is actually being said is that Isaiah 53 of the 'Christian Old Testament' agrees with the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls against the Masoretic text. Again, the Dead Sea Scrolls are much older than the Masoretic text which is the textual tradition of the Tanakh that Jews read today.
The question then becomes, How much does the Masoretic text of Isaiah 53 actually disagree with the Dead Sea Scrolls? Reading both provides the answer.
Here is the Great Isaiah Scroll. In the link click on the scroll. A much bigger scroll will come up. Then simply move your cursor over the scroll and then click in order to get the English translation. You must click for each individual verse.
I simply refuted the claim, such as the one made by Pruzhany in post #12 that the Tanakh was rewritten to make it compatible with the New Testament. Readers refer to post #27.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
But it was...And you can blow all the smoke that you want...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Hey, Pruzh, notice what I found on the DSS site and what Mike typed, it seems that he made it sound like there were many more disagreements between the MT and the GIS...When in reality the GIS is GENERALLY in agreement with the MT, which Mike says the TaNaKh is based on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Which is my point. There is no appreciable difference in Isaiah 53 between the so called 'Christian Old Testament' and the Tanakh which follows the Masoretic text. Read Isaiah 53 in the 'Christian Old Testament' and it reads practically the same as the Great Isaiah Scroll which precedes the Masoretic text by a thousand years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I've already posted the link to the Great Isaiah Scroll so that people can compare it with the 'Christian Old Testament.' They are practically identical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
I have looked at it and I read Hebrew...The GIS and the MT are in agreement and you state that the TNK is based off of the MT...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Yes, the Great Isaiah Scroll and the Masoretic text are in agreement. And so is the so called 'Christian Old Testament.'
Here again is the link to the Great Isaiah Scroll.
People need only click on the scroll which will bring up a bigger scroll which when clicked on brings up the English translation which by the way uses the authoritative version of the biblical Book of Isaiah, as rendered by the Jewish Publication Society in 1917 and published by the American Israeli Cooperative Enterprise. Then simply compare it with the 'Christian Old Testament.' They are practically identical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Repeating this does not make it true...
I looked at the site I looked at the Hebrew on the Scroll, The TNK does not agree with the COT...
this is what you said, Mike
Then you said this
Do you see your self-contradiction here?...
I have not contradicted myself. In post #27 I posed the question, 'How much does the Masoretic text of Isaiah 53 actually disagree with the Dead Sea Scrolls?' And stated that reading both provides the answer. I then provided the link to an English translation of the Great Isaiah Scroll so that people can read and compare for themselves. I never said or implied that there was great disagreement between the Masoretic text and the Great Isaiah scroll. My point has been to show that the 'Christian Old Testament' of Isaiah 53 does not significantly differ from the Tanakh which follows the Masoretic text.
Repeating what I said doesn't make something true, but providing the means so that people can compare the Masoretic text, the Great Isaiah Scroll, and the 'Christian Old Testament' of Isaiah 53 shows that what I said is true.
And once again, here is the link to the English translation of the Great Isaiah scroll that I previously provided so that people can look for themselves and compare Isaiah 53 with their own Bible. It is necessary once in the site to click on the scroll which will then take you to another larger scroll which when clicked on will provide the English translation.
And here is another online English translation of Isaiah 53 from the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
5. (Chapter 53:1) Who has believed our report and the arm of YHWH to whom has it been revealed (2) And he shall come up like a suckling before us
6. and as a root from dry ground there is no form to him and no beauty to him and in his being seen and there is no appearance
7. that we should desire him. (3) He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and knowing grief
8. and as though hiding faces from him he was despised and we did not esteem him. (4) Surely our griefs he
9. is bearing and our sorrows he carried them and we esteemed him beaten and struck by God
[There is a scribal thumb print over lines 10 to 12.]
10. and afflicted. (5) and he is wounded for our transgressions, and crushed for our iniquities, the correction
11. of our peace was upon him and by his wounds he has healed us. (6) All of us like sheep have wandered each man to his own way
12. we have turned and YHWH has caused to light on him the iniquity of all of us (7) He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he did not
13. open his mouth, as a lamb to the slaughter he is brought and as a ewe before her shearers is made dumb he did not open
14. his mouth. (8) From prison and from judgement he was taken and his generation who shall discuss it because he was cut off from the land of
15. the living. Because from the transgressions of his people a wound was to him (PP)
16. (9) And they gave wicked ones to be his grave and [a scribbled word probably accusative sign "eth"] rich ones in his death
17. although he worked no violence neither deceit in his mouth (10) And YHWH was pleased to crush him and He has caused him grief. (PP)
18. If you will appoint his soul a sin offering he will see his seed and he will lengthen his days and the pleasure of YHWH {&yod?&]
19. in his hand will advance. (11) Of the toil of his soul he shall see {+light+} and he shall be satisfied and by his knowledge shall he make righteous
20. even my righteous servant for many and their iniquities he will bear. (12) Therefore I will apportion to him among the great ones
21. and with the mighty ones he shall divide the spoil because he laid bare to death his soul and with the transgressors
22. he was numbered, and he, the sins of many, he bore, and for their transgressions he entreated.(PP)
Now the following is how Isaiah 53 from the Great Isaiah Scroll is translated by Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint, and Eugene Ulrich in their book, 'The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible.' Martin Abegg Jr. and Peter Flint are co-directors of the Dead Sea Scrolls Institute at Trinity Western University in British Columbia. Abegg is co-translator of the highly acclaimed Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation. Eugene Ulrich, a professor at Notre Dame University, is one of the chief editors of the Qumran biblical texts. Here is their translation of Isaiah 53. The words that are in italics are where there are differences with the Masoretic text.
1 Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him like a tender plant, and like a root out of a dry ground; he had no form and he had no majesty that we should look at him, and had no attractiveness that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by others, and a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering; and like one from whom people hide their faces and we despised him, and we did not value him.
4 Surely he has borne our sufferings, and carried our sorrows; yet we considered him stricken, and struck down by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions and he was crushed for our iniquities, and the punishment that made us whole was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, each of us, to his own way, and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, as a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 From detention and judgment he was taken away ---and who can even think about his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living, he was stricken for the transgression of my people. 9 Then they made his grave with the wicked, and with rich peoplehis tomb ---although he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet the LORD was willing to crush him, and he made him suffer. Although you make his soul an offering for sin, and he will see his offspring, and he will prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will triumph in his hand. 11 Out of the suffering of his soul he will see light, and find satisfaction. And through his knowledge his servant; the righteous one, will make many righteous, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I allot him a portion with the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong; because he poured out his life to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for their transgressions.
And finally, here is the 'Christian Old Testament' using the English Standard version.
53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2] For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. 3] He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4] Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 5] But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. 6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. 8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 9] His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10] Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11] Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. 12] Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.
All right. I have provided two online translations of Isaiah 53 from the Great Isaiah Scroll, as well as the translation from 'The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible,' and the English Standard Version of the 'Christian Old Testament.' As can plainly be seen they are all basically the same with only minor variants.
Your claim regarding Isaiah 53 that the Tanakh which follows the Masoretic text does not agree with the 'Christian Old Testament' is shown for all to see to be false. And Pruzhany's claim that the Old Testament was rewritten to flow with the New Testament is false.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-03-2015 at 11:26 PM..
Hey, Pruzh, notice what I found on the DSS site and what Mike typed, it seems that he made it sound like there were many more disagreements between the MT and the GIS...When in reality the GIS is GENERALLY in agreement with the MT, which Mike says the TaNaKh is based on...
Yes I did. I usually stay away from the religious forums until someone brings up a word on by search list. Sometimes I answer and sometimes I don't. I use to do Greek translations for a priest that used to be in this forum. He got fed up with all the mis-translations on this forum and left. The problem with English translations is that they don't resemble the original text and whomever did the translations used the wrong words and changed the context by doing so. It's more common here, but TFFs versions of Hebrew/Aramaic/Yiddish/Yeshivish in the other forum were not much better and the new people that joined over the past year are posting things in other languages with translations that they think is correct and it's not (google translate is a quick way to verify). Usu... stepped in for awhile but I was correcting him. And then it also happens in the other forum with Arabic/Aramaic and I simply send a msg to Wood that the translation is wrong.
You know as I think about it, if I didn't leave the fold I would be a Haredi Rabbi now and both my sons would be Rabbi's in training.
Hey, Pruzh, notice what I found on the DSS site and what Mike typed, it seems that he made it sound like there were many more disagreements between the MT and the GIS...When in reality the GIS is GENERALLY in agreement with the MT, which Mike says the TaNaKh is based on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany
Yes I did.
Simply read post #47 if you haven't already.
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