U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-30-2015, 10:09 AM
 
13,320 posts, read 12,361,464 times
Reputation: 4746

Advertisements

The next time one of those InterVarsity Christian Fellowship apostles walks up to you and says, "Do you know that the Old Testament prophesied that Jesus would be crucified for your sins" look him straight in the eyes and say, "No, it didn't."

His eyes will go wide as silver dollars because this is the first time someone has ever confronted him. He'll start to mumble and sputter, "Bu..bu..but of course it did. Just read...."

Stop him right there and say, Yes, I have read Isaiah 53. Isaiah wasn't referring to Jesus, he was referring to God's suffering servant, Israel. Check it. It's in Chapter 52. Read also the following verses:

Quote:
Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”
Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”
Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

His face will go red as he tries to recover his nerve, "But surely Psalm 22:16 says..."

Stop him right there and say. I know what you're going to say about "They have pierced my hands and feet" but that is not an accurate translation. The proper translation is''

Quote:
"Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet". The Jewish Publication Society
Continue with

"Centuries after Jesus was crucified translators changed the word "at" to "pierce" in an effort to make the verse more applicable to Jesus. They were looking for anything in the Old Testament they could link to Jesus to make it seem as if the Old Testament prophesied about Jesus. In reality the Old Testament never said anything about Jesus. So you see, when you truly understand the Old Testament you will recognize that Jesus never fulfilled any prophecies in it. The Old Testament prophesied that the Messiah would be a mighty leader who would free Israel from the bonds of its oppressors. Jesus never fulfilled this prophecy."

Then smile smugly as he quickly dismisses himself in embarrassment and walks away.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-30-2015, 01:36 PM
Status: "Once upon a time known as Mike555" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: El Paso, TX
24,338 posts, read 18,309,967 times
Reputation: 10485
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
The next time one of those InterVarsity Christian Fellowship apostles walks up to you and says, "Do you know that the Old Testament prophesied that Jesus would be crucified for your sins" look him straight in the eyes and say, "No, it didn't."

His eyes will go wide as silver dollars because this is the first time someone has ever confronted him. He'll start to mumble and sputter, "Bu..bu..but of course it did. Just read...."

Stop him right there and say, Yes, I have read Isaiah 53. Isaiah wasn't referring to Jesus, he was referring to God's suffering servant, Israel. Check it. It's in Chapter 52. Read also the following verses:




His face will go red as he tries to recover his nerve, "But surely Psalm 22:16 says..."

Stop him right there and say. I know what you're going to say about "They have pierced my hands and feet" but that is not an accurate translation. The proper translation is''



Continue with

"Centuries after Jesus was crucified translators changed the word "at" to "pierce" in an effort to make the verse more applicable to Jesus. They were looking for anything in the Old Testament they could link to Jesus to make it seem as if the Old Testament prophesied about Jesus. In reality the Old Testament never said anything about Jesus. So you see, when you truly understand the Old Testament you will recognize that Jesus never fulfilled any prophecies in it. The Old Testament prophesied that the Messiah would be a mighty leader who would free Israel from the bonds of its oppressors. Jesus never fulfilled this prophecy."

Then smile smugly as he quickly dismisses himself in embarrassment and walks away.
You keep making sensationalistic, and confrontational claims. The fact of the matter is that who Isaiah 53 refers to has been debated among the Jews through out history. As Messianic Jew Dr. Michael L. Brown states,
'It is impossible, both contextually and logically, for Isaiah 53 to be speaking of the people of Israel. Rather, the text clearly speaks of one individual, and as many rabbis recognized through the ages, that individual was the Messiah.' [Bolded mine]

'For the last thousand years, religious Jews have often interpreted Isaiah 53 with reference to the people of Israel, but that has by no means been the consensus interpretation, and it is not the interpretation of the Talmudic rabbis. So, for example, the Targum interprets the passage with reference to the Messiah---as a warring, victorious king, even to the point of completely twisting the meaning of key verses---while the Talmud generally interprets the passage with reference to the Messiah, or key individuals (like Moses or Phineas), or the righteous.' [Michael L. Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, p. 49]
Dr. Brown goes on to note that although Rashi, Ibn Ezra, and Radak interpreted Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel, other Jewish leaders such as Moses ben Nachman held to the ancient tradition of the Talmudic rabbis that Isaiah 53 refers an individual, rather than the nation. He has much more to say about it, but the above is enough to show that various interpretations of Isaiah have been held among Jewish rabbis.

Some of Dr. Brown's lectures concerning this are available on YouTube. Shown below is part of a lecture in which he addresses the objection that Isaiah 53 speaks of the people of Israel, not Jesus.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9J9ByB4UhY

The next video is longer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LorWCJ59CAg

In this next video, Dr. Michael Rydelnik, Dr. Michael Brown, Dr. Walter Kaiser, and Dr. Darrell Bock discuss the issue of who the servant is in Isaiah 53.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEdGeDX0Y3U

Now it is true that certain passages do refer to Israel as the righteous servant. But it is equally true that other passages refer to an individual as the righteous servant. And many rabbis through the ages, have viewed Isaiah 53 as referring to the Messiah.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2015, 01:38 PM
 
19,943 posts, read 14,434,894 times
Reputation: 1985
Never read Psalm 22?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2015, 01:43 PM
 
Location: The Ranch
23,186 posts, read 25,912,500 times
Reputation: 9641
This is why we as Jews keep on telling you that the Old Testament is not a verbatim copy of our Tanakh. The Old Testament is a re-write and has had sections reworded, had sections moved elsewhere, had sections removed and had sections added.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2015, 02:22 PM
 
13,320 posts, read 12,361,464 times
Reputation: 4746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You keep making sensationalistic, and confrontational claims. The fact of the matter is that who Isaiah 53 refers to has been debated among the Jews through out history. As Messianic Jew Dr. Michael L. Brown states,
'It is impossible, both contextually and logically, for Isaiah 53 to be speaking of the people of Israel. Rather, the text clearly speaks of one individual, and as many rabbis recognized through the ages, that individual was the Messiah.' [Bolded mine]

'For the last thousand years, religious Jews have often interpreted Isaiah 53 with reference to the people of Israel, but that has by no means been the consensus interpretation, and it is not the interpretation of the Talmudic rabbis. So, for example, the Targum interprets the passage with reference to the Messiah---as a warring, victorious king, even to the point of completely twisting the meaning of key verses---while the Talmud generally interprets the passage with reference to the Messiah, or key individuals (like Moses or Phineas), or the righteous.' [Michael L. Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, p. 49]
Dr. Brown goes on to note that although Rashi, Ibn Ezra, and Radak interpreted Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel, other Jewish leaders such as Moses ben Nachman held to the ancient tradition of the Talmudic rabbis that Isaiah 53 refers an individual, rather than the nation. He has much more to say about it, but the above is enough to show that various interpretations of Isaiah have been held among Jewish rabbis.

Some of Dr. Brown's lectures concerning this are available on YouTube. Shown below is part of a lecture in which he addresses the objection that Isaiah 53 speaks of the people of Israel, not Jesus.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9J9ByB4UhY

The next video is longer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LorWCJ59CAg

In this next video, Dr. Michael Rydelnik, Dr. Michael Brown, Dr. Walter Kaiser, and Dr. Darrell Bock discuss the issue of who the servant is in Isaiah 53.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEdGeDX0Y3U

Now it is true that certain passages do refer to Israel as the righteous servant. But it is equally true that other passages refer to an individual as the righteous servant. And many rabbis through the ages, have viewed Isaiah 53 as referring to the Messiah.
Well, then the rabbis are at odds with each other because I have a whole army of rabbis lined up who will say Isaiah never once referred to the Messiah, but to Israel. The most famous verse in Isaiah generally regarded by Christians as being about the Messiah is Chap 53. But the more well-known verse attributed to being directly about Jesus is Isaiah 9:6-7. Yet if you read the analysis by a Jewish rabbi, you will see that none of it refers to Jesus when looked at in its original Hebrew in proper context:

Quote:
When did Jesus ever run any government?
When was Jesus ever called a Wonderful Counselor, or a Mighty Gd, or an Everlasting Father, or a Prince of Peace? Jesus was never called by any of these names anywhere in the Christians' New Testament and not at all in his own lifetime.
Christians always seem to misunderstand this quotation. This is because they do not understand Hebrew, nor do they understand names, nor do they understand Hebrew names.
Rabbi Federow then goes into greater detail:

Quote:
'Wonderful Counselor'
In the Christian's New Testament we find two stories about Jesus that certainly do not describe him as a Wonderful Counselor:
Another of the disciples said to him, 'Lord, let me first go and bury my father.' But Jesus said to him, 'Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.' [Matthew 8:21]
What kind of 'Wonderful Counselor' would tell a man who had recently lost his beloved father not to see to his father's funeral?
When he had said this, one of the officers standing by struck Jesus with his hand, saying, 'Is that how you answer the high priest?' Jesus answered him, 'If I have spoken wrongly, bear witness to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?' [John 18:22-23]
Everyone is familiar with the quotation from Jesus, 'Do not resist one who is evil, but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.' [Matthew 5:39] In the quotation above from John 18, Jesus does not turn his other cheek to the one who struck him, but rebukes him instead. One who says one thing but does another is called a hypocrite, and how can a hypocrite be a 'Wonderful Counselor?'
Now here's the payoff:

Quote:
So, according to the Jewish interpretation, who is Isaiah 9:6-7 speaking about?
According to Judaism, the answer is in the names chosen. The name 'Hezekiah' which in Hebrew is 'Chizkiyah' comes from the words 'chazak' and 'Ya.' 'Chazak' means 'strong' or 'mighty' and 'Ya' is the shortened name for Gd used as a suffix. Many might recognize the Ya' in the word, 'halleluyah' which means,'praise Gd.' Judaism believes that Isaiah 9:6-7 refers to Hezekiah, who reigned for almost 30 years. The name Hezekiah, Chizkiyah, is the same name in meaning, as one finds in the verses from Isaiah 9:6-7, a 'Mighty Gd.'
So opinions on this are split. Even among rabbis there are some who feel this is a reference to Jesus, while others feel it is not and they provide cogent explanation for why they do not believe Isaiah 9:6-7 is referring to Jesus.

At the end of the day it is a matter of opinion. There is no definitive answer. So there was nothing inaccurate in my OP. At the same time you are right in what evidence you put forth. Nobody can be wrong about Isaiah, just as nobody can be right. I hope you are mature enough to see this through the prism of common sense and not your own personal biases.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2015, 02:39 PM
Status: "Once upon a time known as Mike555" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: El Paso, TX
24,338 posts, read 18,309,967 times
Reputation: 10485
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Well, then the rabbis are at odds with each other because I have a whole army of rabbis lined up who will say Isaiah never once referred to the Messiah, but to Israel. The most famous verse in Isaiah generally regarded by Christians as being about the Messiah is Chap 53. But the more well-known verse attributed to being directly about Jesus is Isaiah 9:6-7. Yet if you read the analysis by a Jewish rabbi, you will see that none of it refers to Jesus when looked at in its original Hebrew in proper context:



Rabbi Federow then goes into greater detail:



Now here's the payoff:



So opinions on this are split. Even among rabbis there are some who feel this is a reference to Jesus, while others feel it is not and they provide cogent explanation for why they do not believe Isaiah 9:6-7 is referring to Jesus.

At the end of the day it is a matter of opinion. There is no definitive answer. So there was nothing inaccurate in my OP. At the same time you are right in what evidence you put forth. Nobody can be wrong about Isaiah, just as nobody can be right. I hope you are mature enough to see this through the prism of common sense and not your own personal biases.
I just got through specifically stating the fact that the Jewish rabbis have had different interpretations regarding Isaiah 53.

But there is certainly a definitive and correct view of Isaiah 53.

And worry about your own maturity, or lack thereof. Don't attempt to make an issue out of mine. We're done.

Addendum: Oh yes. In case you are interested, when the Ethiopian eunuch asked Philip the meaning of Isaiah 53 Philip started to tell him about Jesus in answer to his question. See Acts 8:26-35. He preached Jesus from Isaiah 53. And there you are.

Last edited by Michael Way; 10-30-2015 at 03:19 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2015, 04:23 PM
 
598 posts, read 277,121 times
Reputation: 72
I guess no one has told the op how the name "Israel" means "God's firstborn son" of whom there is only one


Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt

Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2015, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
15,199 posts, read 6,320,851 times
Reputation: 6275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
This is why we as Jews keep on telling you that the Old Testament is not a verbatim copy of our Tanakh. The Old Testament is a re-write and has had sections reworded, had sections moved elsewhere, had sections removed and had sections added.
Interesting. I did not know that. But I am not surprised. Obviously, Christianity would have been incentivized to "fudge" some things.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2015, 06:26 PM
 
598 posts, read 277,121 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Interesting. I did not know that. But I am not surprised. Obviously, Christianity would have been incentivized to "fudge" some things.
Can't hardly blame the jews for doing what they have done. After all the entire case of "legitimacy" for what is called "Israel" in the mideast today for representing "Biblical Israel", for being the "chosen people and generation," depends on a successful and credible attack on the the truth of both the OT and NT as it appears in most english translations

Had what is called Israel today chosen to use the name "Judah" instead of stealing the name "Israel" from a people who God turned His back on and kicked them out without ever calling them back to the land as He did call Judah back, they could make somewhat of a legit claim to this name

Truth is God gave the OT nation of Israel (the northern ten tribes) a certificate of divorce and a boot of the land they were never called back to. In the Law of God it is unlawful for a man to take back a wife He has already divorced and God is not about to violate His own Law

For an accurate view coming from Jews who DO NOT misrepresent themselves and stick to the commandments of God, visit this site and see what they have to say about the modern day nation that has stolen the name of "Israel"

Welcome to True Torah Jews | True Torah Jews

For what God says about Israel and who will be called by "another name" let us look to the Scriptures

Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

The only other name given to the called and chosen of God is Christians who are each individual parts of the many member body of Christ who are the ONLY servants of God who have been bought and and paid for by the Blood of His Son. However, this is an option that is open to "whosoever will may come" including jews who have been broken off from the Tree of Life (that is the Torah in the OT "Old Hebrew") but may be grafted back in through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son Jesus

BTW as far as the accuracy of the OT in the "KJV" translation of the Bible goes?

Within the discovery made of the well known "Dead Sea Scrolls" was an almost entire copy of the Book of Isaiah that was not in fragments as were much of the Dead Sea Scrolls. For those who have studied them including the astute rabbis and teachers of the True Torah Jews the translation of the Book of Isaiah as it appears in the KJV is not only the best of the other english translations available (at the time) it was in their opinion as about as good as a translation could be between two completely different languages and methods of putting words of two different languages that were not always compatible into print

Last edited by Livelystone; 10-30-2015 at 07:01 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-30-2015, 09:10 PM
 
122 posts, read 92,691 times
Reputation: 300
Obviously, if the OT had clearly predicted that the Messiah would be crucified, the Jews would have been much quicker to accept Jesus as the Messiah. The fact that He was crucified was and is a major stumbling block for the Jews because death by crucifixion was understood to be a sign of rejection by God. An ignominious crucifixion was precisely what the Jews did not expect their anticipated glorious Messiah to suffer. So the OP is scarcely "breaking news." It is in retrospect that Psalm 22, Isaiah 53 and other OT verses are understood as pointing to Jesus. Many OT (and NT) verses do double-duty - they have meaning both for the contemporary audience and for a future audience.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top