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Now the word used for sick in v 15 does have one definition as weary , IF pulled out of context with the word for sick in v. 14 , which is always used to mean disease.
But if we want to make the word in v 14 mean weary also, then we call into question all the miracles of Jesus and the Apostles where they are said to have healed the SICK.
You cant have it both ways.
Correct, verse 14, is a reference to that of lacking physical strength, especially as a result of age or illness.
However, it can also refer to those who are unable to make intelligent decisions or judgments; feeble-minded.
The class and lesson is nonsense. The Greek word means diseased, ill, sick. It is used repeatedly through the NT to refer to those physically ill.
Mat 10:8
Mk 6:56
Luke 4:40
Luke 7;10
Jn 4:46
Jn 5:7
Jn 6:2
This guys claim it means weary is bogus and an attempt to explain away the fact that people don't get healed from following James' instructions.
Dr. Dean knows Greek and actually addresses your comment in the class as you would have known if you had listened to the class or actually read the transcript.
Dr. Robert L. Dean, Jr. is pastor of West Houston Bible Church in Houston, Texas.
Before coming to West Houston Bible Church, Dr. Dean was the Pastor of Preston City Bible Church in Preston, Connecticut. Prior to that he had served churches in both the Dallas and Houston, Texas areas and has over 35 years of pastoral experience, including experience with Christian camping and youth groups.
Dr. Dean is a much sought after Bible teacher both in the United States and overseas. He has served on the adjunct faculty of the College of Biblical Studies, Faith Evangelical Seminary, and Chafer Theological Seminary and also serves on the Governing Board for Chafer Theological Seminary.
Dr. Dean trained for the ministry at Dallas Theological Seminary where he earned a Th.M. in Hebrew and Old Testament Studies and later returned to pursue a Ph.D. in theological studies with an emphasis in Historical Theology. He also earned an M.A. in Philosophy from the University of St. Thomas (1987) and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Faith Evangelical Seminary (2002). In 1988 he was recognized as an Outstanding Young Man of America, and in 1989 was listed in the Who's Who in American Christian Leadership .
Dr. Dean is the co-author of What the Bible Teaches About Spiritual Warfare, with Dr Tommy Ice (available from Dean Bible Ministries), and God's Powerful Promises. He has also authored numerous theological articles which have appeared in Bibliotheca Sacra, the Chafer Theological Journal, and the Conservative Theological Journal, and several Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias, as well contributed articles for the Tim LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible and The Popular Handbook on the Rapture.
His academic training in Greek, Hebrew, theology, philosophy, and history enables him to study the Bible in the original languages and show how these eternal truths are as vital today as always. [Bolded mine]
Also addressing your comment, Dr. Ronald Blue writes;
5:14-15. James asked a third question and then answered it fully. Is any one of you sick? A great deal of misunderstanding has resulted from these verses. Some seem to teach from this passage that full physical health is always just a prayer away. Others have found in this passage justification for ''extreme unction'' (a practice begun in the eighth century). Still others have tried to relate the process outlined by James to the modern practice of invoking God (''pray over him'') and using medicine (''anoint him with oil'')---prayer plus a physician. The heart of the problem lies in just what James meant when he referred to the ''sick.'' Actually here is no reason to consider ''sick'' as referring exclusively to physical illness. The word asthenei literally means ''to be weak.'' Though it is used in the Gospels for physical maladies, it is generally used in Acts and the Epistles to refer to a weak faith or a weak conscience (cf. Acts 20:35; Rom. 6:19; 14:1; 1 Cor. 8:9-12). That it should be considered ''weak'' in this verse is clear in that another Greek word (kamnonta) in James 5:15, translated sick person, literally means ''to be weary.'' The only other use in the New Testament (Heb. 12:3) of that word clearly emphasized this same meaning.
James was not referring to the bedfast, the diseased, or the ill. Instead he wrote to those who had grown weary, who had become weak both morally and spiritually in the midst of suffering. These are the ones who should call for the help of the elders of the church. The early church leaders were instructed (1 Thes. 5:14) to ''encourage the timid'' and ''help the weak'' (asthenōn).
[The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary]
You gave the following verses: Matt. 10:8; Mk. 6:56; Luke 4:40; Luke 7:10; Jn. 4:46; Jn. 5:7; Jn. 6:2. In each of these the Greek word is astheneó (Strongs #770). It refers in these verses to 'ailing' or being 'sick.'
And actually the word isn't used in Luke 7:10.
However, in Acts 20:35, and 1 Cor. 8:11-12 astheneó (Strongs #770) refers not to the sick, but to those who are weak.
Acts 20:35 "In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak (asthenountōn [770] - being weak; astheneó [770]) and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
1 Cor. 8:11 For through your knowledge he who is weak ( asthenōn [770]; astheneó [770]) is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12] And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak (asthenousan [770]; astheneó [770]) you sin against Christ.
Now, in James 5:14 the Greek word is astheneó (Strong's 770). While Bible translations translate it as 'sick' in James 5:14, as has been seen, while in the Gospels, it is used for physical sickness, in Acts and the epistles, it refers to a weak faith or to a weak conscience.
James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick (asthenei [770];astheneó [770])? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
Strong's Concordance
astheneó: to be weak, feeble
Original Word: ἀσθενέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: astheneó
Phonetic Spelling: (as-then-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I am weak, sick
Definition: I am weak (physically: then morally), I am sick.
Now compare the Greek word kamnó in James 5:15 with Hebrews 12:3. While translated as 'sick' in James 5:15 it refers to growing weary in Hebrews 12:3. This lends further evidence that James 5:14 should be understood as referring not to one who is physically sick, but to one who is weary of soul.
James 5:15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick (2577. kamnó ), and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Hebrews 12:3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary (2577. kamnó) and lose heart.
Again, the class by Dr. Dean is posted in post #4 if anyone reading this thread and this post is interested.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-08-2015 at 08:44 PM..
Christian apologists spend a great deal of time trying to find ways to explain away contradictions in the Bible. But again, if you choose to contend that the word used throughout the Gospels to mean the ill and diseased really means simply weary or weak, then you have destroyed the stories of Jesus and the Apostles healing the sick.
Are you in agreement then that the Apostles and Jesus were not actually miraculously healing diseases and physical maladies?
Christian apologists spend a great deal of time trying to find ways to explain away contradictions in the Bible. But again, if you choose to contend that the word used throughout the Gospels to mean the ill and diseased really means simply weary or weak, then you have destroyed the stories of Jesus and the Apostles healing the sick.
Are you in agreement then that the Apostles and Jesus were not actually miraculously healing diseases and physical maladies?
I suggest that you very carefully read post #32 as I have gone into great detail concerning this. Neither Acts or the epistles restrict astheneó to physical sickness.
Dr. Dean knows Greek and actually addresses your comment in the class as you would have known if you had listened to the class or actually read the transcript.
Dr. Robert L. Dean, Jr. is pastor of West Houston Bible Church in Houston, Texas.
Before coming to West Houston Bible Church, Dr. Dean was the Pastor of Preston City Bible Church in Preston, Connecticut. Prior to that he had served churches in both the Dallas and Houston, Texas areas and has over 35 years of pastoral experience, including experience with Christian camping and youth groups.
Dr. Dean is a much sought after Bible teacher both in the United States and overseas. He has served on the adjunct faculty of the College of Biblical Studies, Faith Evangelical Seminary, and Chafer Theological Seminary and also serves on the Governing Board for Chafer Theological Seminary.
Dr. Dean trained for the ministry at Dallas Theological Seminary where he earned a Th.M. in Hebrew and Old Testament Studies and later returned to pursue a Ph.D. in theological studies with an emphasis in Historical Theology. He also earned an M.A. in Philosophy from the University of St. Thomas (1987) and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Faith Evangelical Seminary (2002). In 1988 he was recognized as an Outstanding Young Man of America, and in 1989 was listed in the Who's Who in American Christian Leadership .
Dr. Dean is the co-author of What the Bible Teaches About Spiritual Warfare, with Dr Tommy Ice (available from Dean Bible Ministries), and God's Powerful Promises. He has also authored numerous theological articles which have appeared in Bibliotheca Sacra, the Chafer Theological Journal, and the Conservative Theological Journal, and several Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias, as well contributed articles for the Tim LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible and The Popular Handbook on the Rapture.
His academic training in Greek, Hebrew, theology, philosophy, and history enables him to study the Bible in the original languages and show how these eternal truths are as vital today as always. [Bolded mine]
Also addressing your comment, Dr. Ronald Blue writes;
5:14-15. James asked a third question and then answered it fully. Is any one of you sick? A great deal of misunderstanding has resulted from these verses. Some seem to teach from this passage that full physical health is always just a prayer away. Others have found in this passage justification for ''extreme unction'' (a practice begun in the eighth century). Still others have tried to relate the process outlined by James to the modern practice of invoking God (''pray over him'') and using medicine (''anoint him with oil'')---prayer plus a physician. The heart of the problem lies in just what James meant when he referred to the ''sick.'' Actually here is no reason to consider ''sick'' as referring exclusively to physical illness. The word asthenei literally means ''to be weak.'' Though it is used in the Gospels for physical maladies, it is generally used in Acts and the Epistles to refer to a weak faith or a weak conscience (cf. Acts 20:35; Rom. 6:19; 14:1; 1 Cor. 8:9-12). That it should be considered ''weak'' in this verse is clear in that another Greek word (kamnonta) in James 5:15, translated sick person, literally means ''to be weary.'' The only other use in the New Testament (Heb. 12:3) of that word clearly emphasized this same meaning.
James was not referring to the bedfast, the diseased, or the ill. Instead he wrote to those who had grown weary, who had become weak both morally and spiritually in the midst of suffering. These are the ones who should call for the help of the elders of the church. The early church leaders were instructed (1 Thes. 5:14) to ''encourage the timid'' and ''help the weak'' (asthenōn).
[The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary]
You gave the following verses: Matt. 10:8; Mk. 6:56; Luke 4:40; Luke 7:10; Jn. 4:46; Jn. 5:7; Jn. 6:2. In each of these the Greek word is astheneó (Strongs #770). It refers in these verses to 'ailing' or being 'sick.'
And actually the word isn't used in Luke 7:10.
However, in Acts 20:35, and 1 Cor. 8:11-12 astheneó (Strongs #770) refers not to the sick, but to those who are weak.
Acts 20:35 "In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak (asthenountōn [770] - being weak; astheneó [770]) and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
1 Cor. 8:11 For through your knowledge he who is weak ( asthenōn [770]; astheneó [770]) is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12] And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak (asthenousan [770]; astheneó [770]) you sin against Christ.
Now, in James 5:14 the Greek word is astheneó (Strong's 770). While Bible translations translate it as 'sick' in James 5:14, as has been seen, while in the Gospels, it is used for physical sickness, in Acts and the epistles, it refers to a weak faith or to a weak conscience.
James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick (asthenei [770];astheneó [770])? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
Strong's Concordance
astheneó: to be weak, feeble
Original Word: ἀσθενέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: astheneó
Phonetic Spelling: (as-then-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I am weak, sick
Definition: I am weak (physically: then morally), I am sick.
Now compare the Greek word kamnó in James 5:15 with Hebrews 12:3. While translated as 'sick' in James 5:15 it refers to growing weary in Hebrews 12:3. This lends further evidence that James 5:14 should be understood as referring not to one who is physically sick, but to one who is weary of soul.
James 5:15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick (2577. kamnó ), and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Hebrews 12:3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary (2577. kamnó) and lose heart.
Again, the class by Dr. Dean is posted in post #4 if anyone reading this thread and this post is interested.
The Achilles's Heel in Mike's argument is that even with his favorite buzzword, "Context" the simple fact is that James doesn't specifically state that he's referring to spiritual illness, which is purely psychological, unless you want to buy perry's outrageous claim that sin, a spiritual and therefore psychological malady, is actually a physical malady. But try to rationalize 2 and 3-year-old babies who get leukemia. What kind of sin have they committed? So if they're completely innocent and free from sin, been baptized--the whole nine yards and their parents pray in good faith for them and the children die anyway, then how can we trust James' promise that God will cure the sick---weary, spiritual illness, or whatever other cockamamie excuses apologists want to throw at us? Can't they just admit:
James was referring to physical illness. He gives no indication otherwise.
Also notice that Mike has turned the argument from spiritual illness into "tired, weary, exhausted". He wasn't getting any traction with the spiritual thing so a change of tact no doubt was needed, but that doesn't seem to be going anywhere either.
The Achilles's Heel in Mike's argument is that even with his favorite buzzword, "Context" the simple fact is that James doesn't specifically state that he's referring to spiritual illness, which is purely psychological, unless you want to buy perry's outrageous claim that sin, a spiritual and therefore psychological malady, is actually a physical malady. But try to rationalize 2 and 3-year-old babies who get leukemia. What kind of sin have they committed? So if they're completely innocent and free from sin, been baptized--the whole nine yards and their parents pray in good faith for them and the children die anyway, then how can we trust James' promise that God will cure the sick---weary, spiritual illness, or whatever other cockamamie excuses apologists want to throw at us? Can't they just admit:
James was referring to physical illness. He gives no indication otherwise.
Also notice that Mike has turned the argument from spiritual illness into "tired, weary, exhausted". He wasn't getting any traction with the spiritual thing so a change of tact no doubt was needed, but that doesn't seem to be going anywhere either.
I haven't turned anything. In post #32 as in post #4 I made it clear that James was referring to spiritual weakness. And I provided the statements of two professional theologians who say that James was not referring to physical sickness (post #4).
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-08-2015 at 09:11 PM..
I suggest that you very carefully read post #32 as I have gone into great detail concerning this. Neither Acts or the epistles restrict astheneó to physical sickness.
Not what I asked. The word is used repeatedly throughout the Gospels and the rest of the NT in reference to what Christians claim are Jesus and the Apostles healing people from diseases. Are you conceding that these healings were simply of the type you claim James is referencing, that of weariness and possible mental exhaustion? Please answer the question this time.
One other point though. Nowhere does the reading or the Greek limit the word to non physical ailments , and so the point of the OP stands , UNLESS you maintain that the word ALWAYS refers to non physical maladies or simple things like feebleness or exhaustion, and that therefore James is never at any point instructing believers to pray for physical healing , and Jesus and the Apostles did no healing of actual physical illnesses.
As much as you might wish, you cant (legitimately ) have it both ways .
I suggest that you very carefully read post #32 as I have gone into great detail concerning this. Neither Acts or the epistles restrict astheneó to physical sickness.
In truth, Mike, you just shooting blanks. You cannot prove that James was referring to spiritual illness or weary illness or whatever cockamamie type of illness besides physical you'd like to concoct to get James off the hook, but you can't specifically prove that's what he's referring to. You're only guessing, right? And since 99% of people reading the verse are immediately going to think James is addressing physical illness and you're going to say, "Well, then 99% of the people are wrong because James is referring to weariness", then it's obvious that with a 1% "majority" the inmates are running the asylum.
I haven't turned anything. In post #32 as in post #4 I made it clear that James was referring to spiritual weakness. And I provided the statements of two professional theologians who say that James was not referring to physical sickness (post #4).
Mike, your insistence that James is not referring at to physical illness, when there's nothing in the passage to indicate he was referring otherwise, is so off-the-wall even for you that it defies rationality. Here's the passage:
Quote:
The Prayer of Faith
[SIZE=2]13 [/SIZE]Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. [SIZE=2]14 [/SIZE]Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. [SIZE=2]15 [/SIZE]And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. [SIZE=2]16 [/SIZE]Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
[SIZE=2]17 [/SIZE]Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. [SIZE=2]18 [/SIZE]Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.
[SIZE=2]19 [/SIZE]My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, [SIZE=2]20 [/SIZE]remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
There is nothing there about a psychological or spiritual kind of malady where James is referring to illness. Why anoint a person with oil when they are just weary?
On the other hand, the example uses about Elijah is purely a natural event, just like sickness. Rain and crops. Those are physical examples. Everything in that passage is about physicality, not spiritual or weariness. James was referring physical illness. He couldn't be referring to anything else.
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But try to rationalize 2 and 3-year-old babies who get leukemia. What kind of sin have they committed? So if they're completely innocent and free from sin, been baptized--the whole nine yards and their parents pray in good faith for them and the children die anyway, then how can we trust James' promise that God will cure the sick---weary, spiritual illness, or whatever other cockamamie excuses apologists want to throw at us? Can't they just admit:
