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Mike, anyone can see you paint yourself into an illogical corner with your line of reasoning. It's simple to explain:
You say most secular scholars don't subscribe to Jesus' bodily resurrection
So far so good. But here's where you go off the rails:
No, no, no. It's YOUR explanation, not the best explanation. After all, why would secular scholars say in one breath they don't believe Jesus bodily resurrected and then in the next breath say that Jesus MUST have bodily resurrected because the disciples BELIEVED he did and so it must be true, Jesus did in fact resurrect. That doesn't make any logical sense. Scholars are too smart to shoot themselves in the foot like that.
The BEST explanation---one that doesn't clash with reality is that the disciples BELIEVED they saw the resurrected Jesus. "BELIEVED" is the key word. Whether it happened or not is anybody's guess, but the fact they BELIEVED he resurrection doesn't make it a fact. That's why I presented the Fatima example and which I noticed you didn't bother to reply to, where thousands of people BELIEVED they saw the sun spin like a top. Did their belief it happened make it factual? NO!No, no, NO! Same with Jesus' resurrection.
Can you understand English? Apparently not. Go back and read my posts on the other thread. We're done here.
Matthew's account may have been written right after Christ's death. Not only that, but Christ foretold the destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew 24:2 which occurred in 70 A.D. Had Matthew been written in 80 AD I'm sure the writer would have attested to Christ's earlier word of its destruction.
RESPONSE:Why are you sure? Did John written about 95 AD "attest to Christ's earlier words of destruction" Or even mention the destruction of Jerusalem?
I thought I would bold the above. Here is proof Christ spoke with the disciples after the resurrection:
Matthew 28:16-20 Now the eleven disciples went into Galilee, into the mountain where Jesus arranges
with them." (17) And, perceiving Him, they worship Him, yet they hesitate." (18) And, approaching, Jesus speaks to them saying, "Given to Me was all authority in heaven and on the earth." (19) Going,
then, disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy
spirit, (20) teaching them to be keeping all, whatever I direct you. And lo! I am with you all the days till
the conclusion of the eon! Amen!"
QUESTION:
What does that have to do with the gospel that was named Matthew's about 135 AD prove anything about that it's writer being the Apostle Matthew?
Eusebius writing about 325 AD quotes a very early Matthew (no longer extant) that has nothing about baptism in the name of the Trinity. And the five accounts of baptism in the New Testament are always in the name of Jesus alone. Never a Trinity.
The writer of the gospel we call Matthew's has no record of the writer speaking to or being spoken to by Jesus or the Apostles. That's because it was not written by someone present at that time.
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 12-08-2015 at 05:48 PM..
Reason: typo
Christ foretold the destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew 24:2 which occurred in 70 A.D. Had Matthew been written in 80 AD I'm sure the writer would have attested to Christ's earlier word of its destruction.
I thought I would bold the above. Here is proof Christ spoke with the disciples after the resurrection:
Matthew 28:16-20 Now the eleven disciples went into Galilee, into the mountain where Jesus arranges
with them." (17) And, perceiving Him, they worship Him, yet they hesitate." (18) And, approaching, Jesus speaks to them saying, "Given to Me was all authority in heaven and on the earth." (19) Going,
then, disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy
spirit, (20) teaching them to be keeping all, whatever I direct you. And lo! I am with you all the days till
the conclusion of the eon! Amen!"
Ever dawn on you that the reason Christ was able to "foretell" the destruction of the temple was because it was written AFTER the event, starting with Mark in 75 AD or so and then with Matthew in 80-90 AD. If I had people writing I had predicted stuff 50 years after I'd allegedly said it I'd be the most famous seer since Nostradamus.
Here's something else to consider. Paul had quite a few conversations with most of the apostles when he was first converted. Don't you think one of them would have told him about Christ's prediction of the temple being destroyed, yet Paul never says a word about it in all of his epistles. Duh! Maybe that's because Paul himself didn't know a thing about it happening in a few short years despite innumerable private audiences with Jesus. If Jesus warned his disciples, why didn't he warn Paul? Pretty strange, huh?
This kind of practical thinking never dawns on a Christian fundamentalist because their minds are shut like a steel trap and they are too wrapped up in their tight little cocoon of their own personal belief system. For those who do seriously consider these questions it's not long before the impracticalities of it are just too much for their logical brains to make sense of so they decide to drop out of Christianity. Happening more and more, baby!
There is NO evidence the 'supernatural' exists! I have probably had much more experience of what some would term the 'supernatural' than most people, throughout my life, and I still think there is a natural cause for everything, even if science hasn't yet caught up.
Mark 27 9 “Then was fulfilled what had been said through Jeremiah the prophet,* “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of a man with a price on his head, a price set by some of the Israelites,10d and they paid it out for the potter’s field just as the Lord had commanded me.†This of course is untrue. There is no such prophecy in Jeremiah. There is another prophecy involving pieces of silver, but this is a labor dispute in Zacheriah.
Matt 27_51-53 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom.* The earth quaked, rocks were split, 52 tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.53And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
No other evangelist tell this story and, of course, there are no other records of this amazing event which supposedly had a large number of witnesses in Jerusalem.
Matthew seems to be the only evangelist concerned that Jesus’ body might be moved, which would have been quite possible if family or friends wanted to remove his body from a borrowed tomb and rebury him in his family’s plot.
Matthew 27:62-66 also does not appear in any of the other gospels; initially there is no guard placed at the tomb.
*62 “The next day, the one following the day of preparation,* the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate 63c and said, “Sir, we remember that this impostor while still alive said, ‘After three days I will be raised up.’64Give orders, then, that the grave be secured until the third day, lest his disciples come and steal him and say to the people, ‘He has been raised from the dead.’ This last imposture would be worse than the first.â€*65Pilate said to them, “The guard is yours;* go secure it as best you can.â€66So they went and secured the tomb by fixing a seal to the stone and setting the guardâ€.
There are several interesting things about this passage. First of all, the guard isn’t placed until the next day allowing some time for the body to be moved. It is usually pictured that this is a Roman guard. But that is not what Matthew reports nor what Pilate may be saying. Recall, the Temple had its own guards. And after the tomb is found to be empty, these guards report to the chief priests not to any Roman authority.
Regarding the resurrection - there is the written testimony provided in the Bible. There is the written testimony by Jesus Himself on the hearts and consciences of those who believe. Everything else is an opinion regardless of its viewpoint.
I have said this before. Christianity is faith based. Christianity is NOT based on proof or evidence. We are not tasked to prove anything.
Those who were tasked with providing evidence and testimony, did so. They were alive and present during the time of Jesus' death and resurrection and wrote about what occurred. That's what we got. Everything else is about having faith in what they wrote. That's it. Some scholar hundreds or thousands of years down the road, with no direct personal involvement, will not have any better insight or information than what was provided in the Bible.
DRob4JC;42222973]Just briefly reading through the thread...
[i]"Regarding the resurrection - there is the written testimony provided in the Bible".
RESPONSE: Actually no. There are seriouly conflicting accounts of non-witnesses written 25 to 50 years after the supposed Resurrection and Ascenion.
>>There is the written testimony by Jesus Himself on the hearts and consciences of those who believe.
RESPONSE: Since Jesus never wrote anything himself, you are obviously speaking metaphorically, not historically, here.
>>Everything else is an opinion regardless of its viewpoint.<<
RESPONSE: No there are some historical elements, but mixed with obvious contradictions and errors.
>>I have said this before. Christianity is faith based. Christianity is NOT based on proof or evidence. We are not tasked to prove anything. <<
RESPONSE: Indeed it is not based on proof or evidence. I agree with you on that. I think Wikpedia describes it best:
Rationalism[b] holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching.
Fideism holds that faith is necessary, and that beliefs may be held without any evidence or reason and even in conflict with evidence and reason.
>>Those who were tasked with providing evidence and testimony, did so. They were alive and present during the time of Jesus' death and resurrection and wrote about what occurred. That's what we got. <<
RESPONSE: I'm afraid not. Luke and Mark were never apostles. The gospel which was written anonmously in 80 AD (50 years after the events it describes) wasn't termed Matthew's until about 135AD. It is obviously copied from Mark (sometimes almost verbatim) containing about 95% percent of what Mark wrote about 10 years earlier.
>>Everything else is about having faith in what they wrote. That's it. Some scholar hundreds or thousands of years down the road, with no direct personal involvement, will not have any better insight or information than what was provided in the Bible.<<
RESPONSE Sure they will, as they separate fact from fiction and the many contradictions is the New Testament.
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 12-09-2015 at 10:48 AM..
Reason: Typos
[i]"Regarding the resurrection - there is the written testimony provided in the Bible".
RESPONSE: Actually no. There are seriouly conflicting accounts of non-witnesses written 25 to 50 years after the supposed Resurrection and Ascenion.
This is not debatable. There is written testimony in the Bible. It's there in print. It exists. Whether you believe it or not is a separate issue. Your choice to believe some other source is a separate issue. The testimony exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotle's Child
>>I have said this before. Christianity is faith based. Christianity is NOT based on proof or evidence. We are not tasked to prove anything. <<
RESPONSE: Indeed it is not based on proof or evidence. I agree with you on that.
Great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotle's Child
>>Those who were tasked with providing evidence and testimony, did so. They were alive and present during the time of Jesus' death and resurrection and wrote about what occurred. That's what we got. <<
RESPONSE: I'm afraid not. Luke and Mark were never apostles. The gospel which was written anonmously in 80 AD (50 years after the events it describes) wasn't termed Matthew's until about 135AD. It is obviously copied from Mark (sometimes almost verbatim) containing about 95% percent of what Mark wrote about 10 years earlier.
Please give me the statements from the ruling authority that states only certain people are allowed to record events. Give me the statements from the ruling authority that supply a statute of limitations that regulate the time period allotted to supply a written record of events.
This is the third thread within the last 30 days that you've started on whether Jesus was resurrected. And you have been shown that Jesus' resurrection is historical.
In the first thread, people can simply refer to post #20 which is my post.
In the second thread, people can refer to post #4 which again is my post.
And you can refer to this post, which is my post.
According to Gospel Matthew the Jewish priests went out and took possession of a closed tomb which proved to be empty the next morning. Evidence that the corpse came back to life and left of it's own accord? NO, of course not! It's evidence that the priests TOOK POSSESSION OF AN EMPTY TOMB! So where was the body? Who were the ones last to be in direct physical control of the body of Jesus? HIS DISCIPLES!
Matthew 27:
[64] Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
And that's just what happened. Except that the disciples did not have to "steal" the body. It was given to Joseph, a disciple by the Roman governor and it was his to do with as he saw fit.
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