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Old 12-12-2015, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 449,917 times
Reputation: 46

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
On this thread I am simply referring readers to what I have already posted on other threads in which I have provided information which scholars, including critical scholars who study in the area of Jesus' resurrection regard as historically valid. What you or anyone else do with that information is your affair. We're done here.
RESPONSE:

Some of us prefer to read widely and evaluate all the evidence. Not just the books we like that tell us what we want to hear.
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Old 12-12-2015, 08:25 AM
 
19,667 posts, read 9,987,712 times
Reputation: 13019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
And yet you are here discussing it.
I have always been interested in mythology. It amazes me that the uneducated believe it's real.
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Old 12-12-2015, 09:36 AM
 
Location: USA
18,431 posts, read 9,056,292 times
Reputation: 8471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
I have always been interested in mythology. It amazes me that the uneducated believe it's real.
It's not just a lack of education. It's childhood indoctrination.

I believed that Santa Claus was real. Why? Because I was taught about Santa Claus as a child, before I had the capacity for critical thinking.
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Old 12-12-2015, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,860 posts, read 10,253,113 times
Reputation: 2290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
I have always been interested in mythology. It amazes me that the uneducated believe it's real.
More people believe in a God then not, puts you in the minority and it suggests otherwise.
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Old 12-12-2015, 09:47 AM
 
19,667 posts, read 9,987,712 times
Reputation: 13019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
More people believe in a God then not, puts you in the minority and it suggests otherwise.
It just proves that the majority are easily controlled and lack logical thinking skills. That's why leaders like Hitler are able to take control.
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Old 12-12-2015, 11:28 AM
 
Location: USA
4,747 posts, read 2,330,974 times
Reputation: 1292
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness
My mother was declared brain dead for about 4 minutes while she was giving birth to me...and after 51 years, I still remember holding her hand, looking down at her body. She would tell me often of her faith in Jesus Christ, that it was him who sustained her to bring me into this world kicking and screaming. She would also remind me often that my faith in Jesus Christ will most surely sustain me when others kick and scream at me.
That's a very subjective kind of an experience. Since I cannot examine it personally I can only doubt that it is accurate. I have verified a memory with my own mother of something that occurred when I was 20 months old. From talking with others it seems that memories of early childhood are are quite rare. Memories of birth would be exceedingly rare indeed. In any case, such a memory has nothing to do with Jesus, and everything to do with the beliefs of your mother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness
Since I don't know anything about you, then I can only conclude, based on nothing but faith in Christ that you're telling the truth that you have not yet completed 2000 yrs. of life
I'm old alright, but not THAT old. I'm 67, born in 1948.


Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness
It is apparent that Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith.
Apparent HOW? It's only apparent because that is what you have been conditioned to believe it all of your life without question. What you are describing is blind faith. If your beliefs are NOT true, would you want to know that? Or would you prefer the soothing comfort of subscribing to your conditioning even if it's not true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness
When I first heard the good news of God's only begotten Son, how that he was betrayed into the hands of sinful men, and was crucified, and died, and the third day rose again from the dead, I rejoiced in the knowledge of what God had so graciously wrought for me, a sinner...and I believed. If it's validation you seek to confirm your unbelief in what I know experientially is true...Jesus Christ is risen from the dead...I can't give it to you, because there is a great gulf fixed between us, so that you can't receive the truth of Christ's resurrection; neither can I wallow in the mire of your unbelief with you, though Christ raised me along with my mother from the grip of death to be alive this day to tell you about it. Sound familiar, or is the story of the dead man and Lazarus not insightful enough for you?
You are aware that people make up stories surely, and that not everything written is true? The story of Lazarus is no more believable than the story of the corpse of Jesus coming back to life and then subsequently flying away. Why in the world would you believe such stories? The answer of course is that you have been programmed to believe that these stories are beyond question from your earliest memories. I underwent the same programming myself, as did your mother, and my mother. Muslim children undergo similar programming. So do Hindu children, Buddhist children, etc. My programming did not take however. I stopped subscribing to ancient superstitious nonsense when I was 13 years old. Some people come to the realization that nonsense is nonsense later in life than I did. Some, not at all. And they pass their programming on to their children. With a 2,000 year history of misplaced faith and futility to look back on, maybe it's time to give some actual thought to what it is you think you believe in. Or maybe you would prefer to subscribe to a falsehood simply because it gives you comfort to do so. Check your own motivations on that. And remember, things are not true simply because you have been told they are true, or because you would prefer them to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness
I'm horrified by unbelief in Christ, as it suggest a dark spot where none can exist. The truth of Christ's resurrection was proclaimed in the beginning...
Proclaimed by who in the beginning of what? All of what you believe takes a whole series of unfounded assumptions to accept. Has that ever even occurred to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness
Peace is never truly peace...unless it's shared!
I have friends and family too, just like anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness
I was that lost sheep!
Without more information I am afraid I cannot relate. But then, I have never felt lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness
Have you forgiven or been forgiven?
I have managed to make it to the ripe old age of 67 without anything in particular I feel the need to be forgiven for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness
Have you ever been angry at someone you can't see?
Not that I can recall. But then, I don't have invisible friends.


Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness
The saying is true...you reap what you sow.
I'm not sure that is true. People who cheat and steal often times get away with it. And bad things often happen to good people. But in my case I have had a good life and no complaints.
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Old 12-12-2015, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Billings, MT
9,885 posts, read 10,903,764 times
Reputation: 14180
The bottom line is, one either has faith in the truth of the Christian Bible, or one does not.
The OP obviously does not.
In fact, the OP strikes me as a stereotypical Atheist Evangelical Missionary, preaching the Gospel of "there is no deity".
Personally, I believe there is a Deity, and I wish all missionaries, including the Evangelical Atheists, would respect MY freedom of religion, and leave me alone!
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Old 12-12-2015, 12:15 PM
 
19,667 posts, read 9,987,712 times
Reputation: 13019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven View Post
The bottom line is, one either has faith in the truth of the Christian Bible, or one does not.
The OP obviously does not.
In fact, the OP strikes me as a stereotypical Atheist Evangelical Missionary, preaching the Gospel of "there is no deity".
Personally, I believe there is a Deity, and I wish all missionaries, including the Evangelical Atheists, would respect MY freedom of religion, and leave me alone!
Then Christians should leave other alone and quit pushing their beliefs.
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Old 12-12-2015, 01:40 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
Reputation: 7422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
"However, the best explanation as to why the disciples believed that they saw the risen Jesus is because they really did." (Mike555)

This is a gross misuse of the word "best."

Best
adjective
1. of the highest quality, excellence, or standing:
2. most advantageous, suitable, or desirable:

The claim that the corpse of Jesus came back to life and then subsequently flew away is in fact the LEAST likely of all possible conclusions. That it happens to be your preferred conclusion cannot alter this obvious fact, and stating it firmly does not alter things either.

"lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first." (Matt. 27:64)

Since an empty grave and missing corpse are OVERWHELMINGLY more likely to be the results of actions taken by the living then they are to be the results of actions taken by the corpse itself, and since Gospel Matthew tells us implicitly that the priests believed that the followers of Jesus had a plan to do that very thing, the "best" answer to the question of the missing corpse and the origin of the story of the "risen" Jesus, is that his followers relocated his body and spread the false rumor that he had been resurrected. Who witnessed the resurrected dead man? His followers and ONLY his followers. And where was the "risen" man now? He bodily lifted up into the sky and disappeared into the clouds. According to his followers and ONLY his followers. The story of the risen Jesus was widely regarded as a false rumor and a hoax at the time by the very people in the "best" position to know what actually occurred, the Jewish population of Jerusalem, who considered it a hoax perpetrated by the followers of Jesus "until this day." (Matthew 28:15)

That IS the obvious and "best" answer.

Not only that, but simple logic begs the question that if Jesus wanted to prove to the world he had risen and ascended he would have done it in front of the largest gathering place of people in Israel, probably the temple. If we want to stretch the significance of this further we could say that that was likeliest place for him to ascend since that is where he is purported to touch down when he returns to earth to set up his Millennial kingdom according to the scriptures.


But no, as you say he chose to "appear" ONLY to his few followers. He chose to ascend ONLY in front of his few followers. Paul's baloney about Jesus appearing to 500 disinterested people is just that....pure baloney! We only have Paul making that claim---no one else and Paul is a self-admitted liar for the sake of his gospel:


Quote:
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"
Quote:
(Rom. 3.7)
In a spirit of good-humored naiveté he winks at the flock of Corinthians whom he has hooked into the fold, and admits that he had tricked them:
"Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so: ... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor. 12.15-16)
As a "man that striveth for the mastery" (1 Cor. 9.25), Paul expounds to the church leaders the modus operandi of the successful propagandist:
"I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake" (1 Cor. 9.19-23).
And he admits to the church of Corinth: "I robbed other churches ... to do you service" (2 Cor. 11.8).'

Surely this most momentous event in history would have been broadcast throughout the Roman empire and beyond. Certainly the most respected and revered secular historians of the day (hundreds at last count) would have written voraciously on the resurrection and ascension. But there isn't one word written by historians in Jesus' time, only hundreds of years later by biased Christian churchmen.


This is not just a smoking gun for the outright lie of Jesus' resurrection and ascension. This is the equivalent of video footage of someone screaming "I'm going to kill you" and then pulling the trigger.


The lack of any substantive historical evidence other than scribblings 70 years after the supposed events are the strongest evidence yet that this is just a made-up story by desperate men determined to keep a legend alive. Nothing more.
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Old 12-13-2015, 12:34 AM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
I have always been interested in mythology. It amazes me that the uneducated believe it's real.
God works in "mythsterious" ways.
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