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The law / idea of double reference is quite powerful - I've believed and used it myself - but eventually, after lots of reading, decided that it shouldn't be used to make something into what it is not. The plain reading of the texts is that Jesus was speaking to his immediate audience about things that were soon to take place. Meaning that if He did go away somewhere and then people would 'see him' again, then AD70 fits the frame for total fulfilment of what he was talking about. 2000 years later is stretching it way too far.
You will not find the words 'second coming' in scripture - it is an erroneous, fallacious doctrine used to create mis-placed, false hope from another erroneous doctrine of imminency, both of which are wrongly inspired. I mean, I used to believe both of these doctrines and enjoyed touting them when necessary, but after consideration I started to become uncomfortable with them in my gut - something didn't feel right, like, its not how God works.
If Jesus does split the sky, and the mount of olives, set up throne in Jerusalem, etc., etc. It will be great, but as the Spirit bears witness, to believe that that will happen is not a condition of salvation - it would be termed only a hope. But it is so far fetched, the right thing to do is analyse and diminish it, with the potential of replacing it with something more 'realistic'.
What God actually wants to do is bring new birth to the inner man for all that live and breathe and have their being, and that is what all the 'coming' is about. He is building His ecclesia / called out ones, body of Christ in the earth - they are Him!, joined and functioning in and through the Holy Spirit. One cant do much better than reading J Preston Eby website Kingdom Ministries with reference to Revelation. The Revelation of Jesus Christ (that is what the bible book is called!) Is about Revelation of Jesus Christ to the inner man, not the outer world. Once this penny drops, and the fact that it is ALL symbology, the unrealistic fantasy doctrines start to fall like dominoes.
The reality is our flesh bodies will die - we won't be physically caught up in the air - the rapture is another erroneous doctrine. We must be open to ideas that have a more realistic 'sound' to them - we have to read and study much wider than what we have always just been told is the truth - once one has done the milk, a singular groove or furrow of doctrinal orthodoxy becomes unhelpful. The test being whether the indwelling Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth.
The mount of olives is your head and when you die, Messiah steps on it and splits you in half.
Oooohhhh...I forgot about THAT one. Yes, ANOTHER passage that CLEARLY indicates that the Gospel writers (well, the first 3) had this idea that Jesus was going to return in THEIR day..
Isn't Luke one of the first 3 gospel writers ?______
Didn't Luke make it clear at Luke 19 vs 11-15 that Jesus' return would Not be instantly or immediately at that time frame ?
Gospel writer John wrote Revelation. The 1st-century Christians did Not have the book of Revelation because John wrote Revelation at the end of the 1st century. And the setting for Revelation - Rev. 1:10 - is set for our day or time frame.
So, even if people thought Jesus would set up God's Kingdom government in their lifetime, does Not make the Scriptures as wrong, just made the judgement of those people as wrong. Jesus set things straight at Luke 19 vs 11-15 when he (Jesus ) as the nobleman would first have to go away to a far country ( heaven ) before he would later return in kingdom glory at the now soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth as mentioned at Matthew 24:31-33
The Father will send Christ back when He's good and ready.
Being familiar with many posters in this forum, it's merciful
that isn't this evening.
The presence( when Jesus received the crown and sat on his throne began here-Rev 6( the war in heaven)1914. the first ride of the white horse( righteous war)--its this generation that will witness the coming of Gods kingdom to the earth-post Har-mageddon( 2nd ride of the white horse. that means it is very close.
The Father will send Christ back when He's good and ready.
Being familiar with many posters in this forum, it's merciful
that isn't this evening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47
The presence when Jesus received the crown and sat on his throne began here-Rev 6 (the war in heaven)1914. the first ride of the white horse (righteous war)--its this generation that will witness the coming of Gods kingdom to the earth-post Har-mageddon (2nd ride of the white horse) that means it is very close.
Isn't Luke one of the first 3 gospel writers ?______
Didn't Luke make it clear at Luke 19 vs 11-15 that Jesus' return would Not be instantly or immediately at that time frame ?
The passage does not give a tie frame, but what it does indicate was that at the time that Jesus was alive on the earth (well, as per the NT), THAT was not the time for the kingdom to come. He had to go away, but other passages STRONGLY indicate that he was going to return for wherever he was going, during THAT generation. In addition, it would be stretch to have Jesus making all these promises to a generation of people to whom none of his words would have any relevance to in terms of this so called second coming and that kingdom, but rather, for people 2000 plus years in the future.
Quote:
Gospel writer John wrote Revelation. The 1st-century Christians did Not have the book of Revelation because John wrote Revelation at the end of the 1st century. And the setting for Revelation - Rev. 1:10 - is set for our day or time frame.
Whoever wrote that book also anticipated the second coming WITHIN a relatively short time after Jesus disappeared from the scene. There is not one hint in the Book of Revelation that any of its contents were meant for 2,000 years into the future. The contents dealt with Imperial Rome of 2,000 years ago and the Christian churches that were under persecution from it. The fact that it was believed Jesus was SOON to return was the source of encouragement to the persecuted.
Quote:
So, even if people thought Jesus would set up God's Kingdom government in their lifetime, does Not make the Scriptures as wrong, just made the judgement of those people as wrong.
Based on what we read, they had EVERY right to believe the end was near.
Quote:
Jesus set things straight at Luke 19 vs 11-15 when he (Jesus ) as the nobleman would first have to go away to a far country ( heaven ) before he would later return in kingdom glory at the now soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth as mentioned at Matthew 24:31-33
What he set straight was, "no, I did bring the kingdom with me on this trip, but I am going away for a minutes and YOU all will see me coming back in glory when I do come back. Just hold tight."
Although some fundamentalists and apologists try to find a way around it, Jesus is quoted as stating absolutely and explicitly that:
Douay-Rheims Bible
Amen I say to you, there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come.
Instead of wasting time claiming that Jesus' plain meaning of words do no convey what he clearly said, lets face the fact that Jesus never returned during his generation.
So, either inspite of Jesus' divine omniscience, he was wrong. Alternately, the scripture writers wrote error into scripture.
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What about this do they NOT understand, Jer???
