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Old 01-08-2016, 01:16 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,887,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you read my reply to him (post #13), then you know that I told him that you don't have to know those details that I mentioned in order to be saved.
I know. I read your post and agree with you.

I'm kind of curious though Mike555,
Do you believe Christ paid for the sins of all mankind but God is going to make mankind pay for their sins with some sort of eternal hell fire and damnation? If that's the case, Christ died in vain. And if one says God is giving man a chance to save themselves, again, Christ's death is meaningless.
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Old 01-08-2016, 01:56 PM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,088 posts, read 29,075,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacegiver View Post
"All those who do good to the resurrection of life"
All who do good for the MERCY, JUSTICE and COMPASSION of their neighbors.
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Old 01-08-2016, 01:58 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I fully agree with thrillobyte.
God doesn't require of us to understand all the theological mumbo jumbo of the ins and outs of what took place when Christ died. He just simply wants us to believe Him that Christ died for our sins, was entombed and roused the third day.

Just look at Romans 4 and Paul's use of Abraham as a prime example of faith and being declared righteous. All Abraham did was believe God. And then Paul says, this was not written because of him only but because of those who are about to be believing Him.
Notice it doesn't say one has to clean oneself up prior to believing God. God doesn't require us to go to church, get baptized, repent, go to vespers and all that B.S. He just wants us to believe Him. And even belief is not some sort or **requirement**. It just is what it is.

Sure, I understand that stuff *now* but it surely was not a requirement to learn it.

Okay, I'll take the path Abraham took. I believe God and that will be counted toward me as justification to salvation (righteousness) because Jesus is God. So if I believe God I believe Jesus since they are one and the same.


My main objection about Jesus is it requires too much faith to believe in Jesus as a separate entity because there's just not enough secular evidence, IMHO, to believe otherwise, but since Jesus said, "I and my Father are one", I gather believing in God is believing in Jesus and the HS.


Mike says all the other stuff is unnecessary. So I'll take a pass on all that.


That's a sale. Thank you, Eusebius.
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Old 01-08-2016, 02:37 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,887,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Okay, I'll take the path Abraham took. I believe God and that will be counted toward me as justification to salvation (righteousness) because Jesus is God. So if I believe God I believe Jesus since they are one and the same.
You are close. I don't think God will hold it against you that you think Jesus is God. If you believe GOD that Christ died for your sins. God doesn't ask you to believe that *He* (GOD) died for your sins. That is what Romans 4 tells us. Believe God concerning what His Son did.


Quote:
My main objection about Jesus is it requires too much faith to believe in Jesus as a separate entity because there's just not enough secular evidence, IMHO, to believe otherwise, but since Jesus said, "I and my Father are one", I gather believing in God is believing in Jesus and the HS.
Again, God is your friend and won't hold it against you for believing that. He is powerful enough to straighten us out if He thinks it is necessary.


Quote:
Mike says all the other stuff is unnecessary. So I'll take a pass on all that.
Wise decision!


Quote:
That's a sale. Thank you, Eusebius.
No hay problema, señor
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Old 01-08-2016, 08:48 PM
 
598 posts, read 354,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
Jesus provided the Holy Spirit so that the born of the spirit believer may receive the Holy Spirit, and be taught of God, thus being under Jesus Lordship, and obey God personally. Just as Jesus demonstrated with His life.
Though one may use the power of Jesus name to perform miracles, this does not certify Gods approval, Matthew 7;21,22,23,
Obedience to God via the Holy Spirit is the litmus test of God's approval .
Believing is not just a mental affirmation, but a living relationship of interaction and choosing God's influence.
No one has or uses the power of Jesus……… it is God alone who works the miracles

The problem those people in Matt.7 are because of their claims of, "didn't we do this," and "didn't we do that"?

Even Jesus did not do the miracles and made it plain it was Hs Father who did the works

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Same goes with the apostles

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Faith is the big mystery here because it is not our faith in Jesus that gets the miracles done but the faith of Jesus in us that gets the miracles done.

So faith is not so much about who you believe in as much as it is what you believe about who you believe in.

Get the foundational doctrines of Christ correctly and as listed in Heb.6:1-2 will enable one to pray a prayer of faith"(Ja.5:15) asking God to heal the sick etc etc with much better possibility of a favorable reply than anyone one else saying "In Jesus name".

It is the truth of Jesus' name in our hearts that is the faith in us that allows us into the presence of the Father to make our requests known to Him
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Old 01-08-2016, 09:19 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone;42563144
[I
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[/i]
Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Faith is the big mystery here because it is not our faith in Jesus that gets the miracles done but the faith of Jesus in us that gets the miracles done.
The faith is no mystery and it has nothing to do with WHAT you believe ABOUT Jesus and God. It is the faith you have that Jesus has indeed saved us, period, because we have nothing to do with our salvation, nothing!. We need to be sanctified under the perfect agape love Jesus has for us all through displaying love for God and each other every day and by repenting when we don't.
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Old 01-08-2016, 09:46 PM
 
598 posts, read 354,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The faith is no mystery and it has nothing to do with WHAT you believe ABOUT Jesus and God. It is the faith you have that Jesus has indeed saved us, period, because we have nothing to do with our salvation, nothing!. We need to be sanctified under the perfect agape love Jesus has for us all through displaying love for God and each other every day and by repenting when we don't.
You are wrong

I will give it one try to get you to learn the truth

If your knowledge of foundational doctrines as listed in Heb.6:1-2 is the truth all is well, however, if it is not the truth, the foundation in you is not Christ !!!

Agape love is the love of the Father and Jesus has become our 'everlasting Father" ………. Amen? I sure hope so for your sake

Consequently, the only way we can have "agape" love that is the love of God the Father and God the Son in you, is if you have Jesus who is the Son and is the truth living in us………… this you can take to the bank

You can have love without knowledge of the truth (30 fold or 60 fold) but only Jesus and His Father have agape love that for you too to have Jesus who is the way and the truth must be living in your heart.

If you knew the truth you would now why knowledge of the truth is critical and why Good said His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge and not the lack of love……… get it?

Unfortunately, since what you believe about the FOUNDATIONAL doctrines of Jesus is not the truth, than it is not Jesus in your heart but an impostor in you transformed to make you think it is Jesus teaching you when Satan is already celebrating his success over you (as he is over most of the church)


Corr. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
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Old 01-08-2016, 09:59 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The faith is no mystery and it has nothing to do with WHAT you believe ABOUT Jesus and God. It is the faith you have that Jesus has indeed saved us, period, because we have nothing to do with our salvation, nothing!. We need to be sanctified under the perfect agape love Jesus has for us all through displaying love for God and each other every day and by repenting when we don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone View Post
You are wrong
I will give it one try to get you to learn the truth
You are wrong. I will give it one try to get you to learn the truth and I will ignore your accusations about Satan. Obviously, you have no idea what Satan IS. Jesus saved us. We have nothing to do withit. The churches have tried to convince people that they must believe their "precepts and doctrines of men" and join their church to be saved. This blasphemes and demeans the work of Christ by pretending what He did was not sufficient and we have to save ourselves. Your leaders and teachers are the false ones who carry a heavy burden. Do you actually think God is so petty and egotistical that He would base our salvation on whether or not we believe the right things????? Our salvation is based on what Jesus did and our sanctification is based on what we DO in agape love under Christ's grace (perfect agape love for us all).
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Old 01-09-2016, 02:36 AM
 
1,613 posts, read 1,019,329 times
Reputation: 327
The emphasis of Livelystone's and Mystic's posts seem to be two different things to me: in the one, the understandings about the beliefs needed to do the 'greater works' and in the other, the essence of the beliefs and understanding of salvation. Bottom line for me personally, is that I'd be happy being saved as one escaping through the flames, but I also think there's a whole lot more works for us to do, and there's the challenge of getting the right belief / works models in us.
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Old 01-09-2016, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,832,457 times
Reputation: 1869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone View Post
You are wrong

I will give it one try to get you to learn the truth

If your knowledge of foundational doctrines as listed in Heb.6:1-2 is the truth all is well, however, if it is not the truth, the foundation in you is not Christ !!!

Agape love is the love of the Father and Jesus has become our 'everlasting Father" ………. Amen? I sure hope so for your sake

Consequently, the only way we can have "agape" love that is the love of God the Father and God the Son in you, is if you have Jesus who is the Son and is the truth living in us………… this you can take to the bank

You can have love without knowledge of the truth (30 fold or 60 fold) but only Jesus and His Father have agape love that for you too to have Jesus who is the way and the truth must be living in your heart.

If you knew the truth you would now why knowledge of the truth is critical and why Good said His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge and not the lack of love……… get it?

Unfortunately, since what you believe about the FOUNDATIONAL doctrines of Jesus is not the truth, than it is not Jesus in your heart but an impostor in you transformed to make you think it is Jesus teaching you when Satan is already celebrating his success over you (as he is over most of the church)


Corr. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
The only difficulty with your perception here is that you conflate Jesus and Christ, which is easy to do. You see, Jesus embodied the Christ or the Word, but the Christ is not limited to the life and ministry of Jesus. It is the Christ who says "I have other sheep not of this flock." Don't make a religion out of Jesus, follow the Spirit that the Christ teaches: That love of God and man that is best expressed in a vested concern for the well being of everyone we call "agape."
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