Salvation Depends On Me (testimony, punishment, churches, beliefs)

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by simpleton

Haven't done much study on universalism, but from what I've read - it seems to be a little bit like preaching an anarchic doctrine. I think God is a savior to all, just don't think that him being a savior to all means one can do whatever they want to do in life and still believe that God's grace has really been manifested within their lives.

I cannot grasp in any way shape or form that the prophets of the Living One declare that which is in any way "anarchic".

Their message points to the final recovery of all things from sin, or, when all things are put right (rectitude), or restored anew.

Acts 3:21

* "Until final recovery of all things from sin." -Kenneth Taylor-

* "Until the whole world is re-created." -RIEU-

* "When all is restored anew." -Monsig. Ronald Knox-

* "When all things are put right." -BAS-

* "Of the great restoration." -James Moffatt-

And so the restitution of all things involves re-creation, rectitude & setting right, and restoration of that which is lost (on man's part, and more importantly on the Creator.)

Christ says the following:

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Now I don't think that the Lord is stating that we ourselves responsable for our salvation in the above, but I do believe carrying of one's cross - is demonstrative of God's grace being accepted and manifest in one's life. Same goes for fruits of the Spirit. I think it's kind of hard and a bit off to preach a doctrine that God's grace has truly had an impact on one's life, if the fruits of the Spirit aren't manifest within one's life.

My two cents.

Stephen

I totally agree with your 2 cents, and will add, the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ Jesus (when an individual is accounted righteous) advances ultimately to "being made the righteousness of God in Him." When one's life is interrupted by the God of glory granting repentance and faith, the Father sees each in His beloved Son regardless of one's state of being (justification by/ in faith). The process of being made like Him, however, goes quite beyond accounted, into the vast working of "being made" righteousness in Jesus Christ. Accounted is now swallowed up in the final stages of actuality. Still accounted righteous, but now made the righteousness of God in Him.

The mass of mankind are "made sinners": the mass of mankind ultimately are "made righteous" according to Romans chapter 5. What begins in the first-fruits of the harvest, the elect/ aparche, now cascades in the great restoration/ rectification to the full mass of mankind being made righteous.

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by simpleton

Christ says the following:

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Now I don't think that the Lord is stating that we ourselves responsable for our salvation in the above, but I do believe carrying of one's cross - is demonstrative of God's grace being accepted and manifest in one's life. Same goes for fruits of the Spirit. I think it's kind of hard and a bit off to preach a doctrine that God's grace has truly had an impact on one's life, if the fruits of the Spirit aren't manifest within one's life.

My two cents.

Stephen

That's worth a whole lot more than two cents, simpleton. Great post. Salvation does not depend on us, we depend on it. Jesus=Salvation. No Jesus=no salvation.(Those who've never heard his name are a separate discussion and there's threads on that. But, for the record, they are not 'automatically doomed. See Rom1)

Great post!

Truth.

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by simpleton

It depends on both..

You can choose to respond to God's salvific grace through Christ Jesus, or you can deny it.

Stephen: I am most hesitant to stand in the Presence of the Lord Christ and tell Him how I chose Him. Let us listen to Him again....."You did not choose Me....."

Arminian "grace!" How strange the sound,

Salvation hinged on me.

I once was lost then turned around,

Was blind then chose to see.

What "grace" is it that calls for choice,

Made from some good within:

That part that wills to heed God's voice,

Proved stronger than my sin.

Thru many ardent gospel pleas,

I sat with heart of stone.

But then some hidden good in me,

Propelled me toward my home.

When we've been there ten thousand years,

Because of what we've done,

We've no less days to sing our praise,

Then when we first begun.

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by spm62

You should do more research on God`s restoration stephen,because this isn`t what it`s all about. This is what the church says to attack univeralism. They misrepresent it because it goes against what they want you to believe. I don`t think you could have gotten that idea about it from this forum because we have stated over and over again and used scriptural support for what universalism is and is not. But it seems no matter how many times we say it or how many ways we say it,some still want to believe that universalism means...I get to do whatever I want and there is no consequences. This same line keeps getting repeated by the same posters even though they have been shown over and over that is not what universalism says. [emphasis added]

While I understand what you are saying, I think there is a difference you're overlooking. I'm very encouraged that Universalists preach Christ and the atonement that comes from the shedding of His blood. I'm glad they preach salvation is by grace and not by works. I'm also heartened that they emphasize that God loves the world. I'm overjoyed they look to Jesus and the author and perfecter of faith. I'm exceedingly giddy they encourage deep Bible study.

However, that's not the whole message. The above message is geared mostly for believers or for those with ears to hear in this lifetime. I have a feeling that non-believers largely hear, "Hey, I can do whatever I want in this life because Jesus is going to reconcile me to Himself after I'm dead. Bummer that I might have to endure some torment, but if I'm going to gain the prize anyway, why should I surrender myself now? Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow I die and will eventually go to heaven. PARTY!"

It's the second message that bothers me. I'm just as convinced from a serious study of the Word that it's what we do in this life that counts (no choice after death) as you are convinced all people will get a second chance. I want my message to be loud and clear because I don't believe universal salvation is a Biblically sound concept; I'm convinced the Bible clearly states all people have a serious choice to make in this lifetime. Universalists, however, don't always seem to care if their message gets to the masses. They sometimes seem more concerned that other Christians on message boards are converted to the "truth" of reconciliation for all.

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by Blueberry

--snip--
I'm exceedingly giddy they encourage deep Bible study.

That sounds like an oxymoron. How else does one learn? By listening to others?

However, that's not the whole message. The above message is geared mostly for believers or for those with ears to hear in this lifetime. I have a feeling that non-believers largely hear, "Hey, I can do whatever I want in this life because Jesus is going to reconcile me to Himself after I'm dead. Bummer that I might have to endure some torment, but if I'm going to gain the prize anyway, why should I surrender myself now? Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow I die and will eventually go to heaven. PARTY!"

If you see a second message then your worldview is based upon works or at least plays and important part in that view.

It's the second message that bothers me. I'm just as convinced from a serious study of the Word that it's what we do in this life that counts (no choice after death) as you are convinced all people will get a second chance. I want my message to be loud and clear because I don't believe universal salvation is a Biblically sound concept; I'm convinced the Bible clearly states all people have a serious choice to make in this lifetime. Universalists, however, don't always seem to care if their message gets to the masses. They sometimes seem more concerned that other Christians on message boards are converted to the "truth" of reconciliation for all.

It is not based on chance, that makes God a gambler and that is precisely what we come against.

small god, BIG DEVIL is what our choices appear to make of the whole gospel.

Ironically, it is only the proponets of ET that have the POV or see a second Nike styled message. I guess the reality, it challenges the foundation of your belief, which is hell and not Jesus Christ and particularly His teachings, also ironic is most unbelievers recognise the Love teachings of Christ and find it missing from what the majority espouse.

Blessings

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by Blueberry

While I understand what you are saying, I think there is a difference you're overlooking. I'm very encouraged that Universalists preach Christ and the atonement that comes from the shedding of His blood. I'm glad they preach salvation is by grace and not by works. I'm also heartened that they emphasize that God loves the world. I'm overjoyed they look to Jesus and the author and perfecter of faith. I'm exceedingly giddy they encourage deep Bible study.

However, that's not the whole message. The above message is geared mostly for believers or for those with ears to hear in this lifetime.

Is it not strange then, that in the closing words of the apostle St. John's revelation on Patmos, the message is to believers who continue business as usual, loudly proclaiming we stand in need of nothing, while the Son of God stands outside their meeting? (Rev. 3:20) And what of Sardis who the Lord declares are a "few" who have not "soiled their garments"? Are all of those mentioned as making up the seven golden candleticks, overcomers with ears awakened to the voice of the Master? Nope, not according to the context of the Revelation!

It's the second message that bothers me. I'm just as convinced from a serious study of the Word that it's what we do in this life that counts (no choice after death) as you are convinced all people will get a second chance.

Second chance? "Good-grief" declares Dr. Chas. Brown (Charlie Brown), I did not realize there was a "first chance".

"And this is in harmony with Gods merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--The purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you, chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him who worketh all things according the counsel of His own will."

[simpleton]

Originally Posted by Birdy_56

Stephen: I am most hesitant to stand in the Presence of the Lord Christ and tell Him how I chose Him. Let us listen to Him again....."You did not choose Me....."

If we deny him, he will deny us. Do we have a choice? Yes. Will it supercede that of God's ultimate choice? No. Will we aways be given a choice to disobey God or deny him? Not on your life...

Edit: Think about it this way. If God stated "The choice is yours and solely yours" He'd essentially be insinuating that he had no control over anyone. We know that God is in control of everything - as he is completely sovereign from the influence of everyone of his creations.

Edit: God already knows who will choose him. So I guess in a sense, as the scriptures say God has already made a choice as to who will choose him. But at the same time, we have been given the choice to deny him. Not sure how to reconcile all of this with human logic. But again, the bible does indeed state that we have a choice in the process.

In Christ,

Stephen

[Cyber Munchkin]

Originally Posted by simpleton

If we deny him, he will deny us. Do we have a choice? Yes. Will it supercede that of God's ultimate choice? No. Will we aways be given a choice to disobey God or deny him? Not on your life...

Edit: Think about it this way. If God stated "The choice is yours and solely yours" He'd essentially be insinuating that he had no control over anyone. We know that God is in control of everything - as he is completely sovereign from the influence of everyone of his creations.

Edit: God already knows who will choose him. So I guess in a sense, as the scriptures say God has already made a choice as to who will choose him. But at the same time, we have been given the choice to deny him. Not sure how to reconcile all of this with human logic. But again, the bible does indeed state that we have a choice in the process.

In Christ,

Stephen

Amen simpleton!
Blessings

[simpleton]

Wanted to add that we need God's Spirit to make the right choice, without it we will inevitably make the wrong choices for our lives. God stating "he has chosen us" also means that we have God directing our steps, instead of being directed by our own self-will. Without God's direction within our lives, we become essentially directionless - not being able to discern the right way we should choose.

As Christians, we should pray to God to take complete control of every aspect of our life(thoughts, heart, actions, etc) - and pray to him to completely remove every bit of self will(pride) we have within our lives - so that he can direct our steps, and so that we may be successful in building God's kingdom.

[Cyber Munchkin]

Originally Posted by simpleton

Wanted to add that we need God's Spirit to make the right choice, without it we will inevitably make the wrong choices for our lives. God stating "he has chosen us" also means that we have God directing our steps, instead of being directed by our own self-will. Without God's direction within our lives, we become essentially directionless - not being able to discern the right way we should choose.

As Christians, we should pray to God to take complete control of every aspect of our life(thoughts, heart, actions, etc) - and pray to him to completely remove every bit of self will(pride) we have within our lives - so that he can direct our steps, and so that we may be successful in building God's kingdom.

I also believe what you are saying here and that the bible teaches it is the life in the process of sanctification. Only the Holy Spirit can lead a life in this direction and complete it.
blessings