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Old 02-04-2016, 10:16 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,871,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
Dear pc,
Paul is all things to all men, and what each man hears from him, depends on the individual. Paul is simply the son of the great deceiver/"enemy" (Mt 13:25). Paul was simply the one who sowed the seeds of the tares. Now that we are at the "end of the age" (Mt 13;40), those tares will be "gathered up" and cast into the "furnace of fire" (Mt 13:42).

The tares are described better in Mt 13:41 and Mt 13:49, as "those who commit lawlessness" and the "wicked".
Those are good Scriptures 2ndpillar.
Did you know that "furnace of fire" in your above verse is highly figurative and not literal?
For instance, did you know that when Israel was held in Egypt as slaves that they were in a furnace of fire for 400+ years? Was Egypt a literal furnace? Was Egypt burning all those years? No.
The furnace of fire is merely an allusion to the fact that those people who receive that judgment will enter into a time of trials such as the Israelites had in Egypt. Most likely those Jews Jesus speaks of will be cast out of Israel and have to live amongst the goat nations during the 1000 years which comes at the end of this age.

But don't you also think it is improper to pit one verse against another verse? Sine God has declared that He "will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all" (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6) we should look at all the judgment verses as temporary, a precursor to all being saved.
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Old 02-04-2016, 10:19 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,871,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
When Jesus said:
"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
It's just a flat out lie to suggest that everyone who refuses-(ed) to believe God's promise will have eternal life universally anyways.

Those who didn't believe God's promise when Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness didn't have eternal life in him.... just as ..... those who do not believe God's promise about the Son of Man will not have eternal life.
Moses was dealing only with Israel in using the lifted up serpent. It is improper to use that cercumstance and try to import it contradict that "God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." (1 Tim.2:4-6).

All the nations will look to Him as their Savior.

Oh and one last thing, it is not "eternal life" they will miss out on but rather "eonian life" or as some translations have it "age-enduring life."
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Old 02-04-2016, 10:38 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,416,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Moses was dealing only with Israel in using the lifted up serpent. It is improper to use that cercumstance and try to import it contradict that "God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." (1 Tim.2:4-6).

All the nations will look to Him as their Savior.

Oh and one last thing, it is not "eternal life" they will miss out on but rather "eonian life" or as some translations have it "age-enduring life."
No it's not improper, Jesus made the connection.
The improper activity is the first "all" must = "all inclusive".


btw .... about your one last thingy.......... it is.

Last edited by twin.spin; 02-04-2016 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 02-04-2016, 11:44 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,041,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
You started this debate.





You have been shown that Paul separated out those who actually believe Jesus. While salvation is available to all, it is not accepted by all. Those who reject Christ remain under condemnation, according to John 3. The whole of scripture shows clearly that universal salvation is false.


That is not debating "without reason".

Well, you should have not posted if you do not want to debate, simple as that.

You have shown me nothing. Jesus is not in the separating business you subscribe too no matter how much it appears to you that he is.
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Old 02-04-2016, 11:47 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,041,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Correct. The parable of the wedding feast is a good illustration of Jesus inviting all, but seeing many reject the invitation.
Got nothing to do with a fundamentalist party up in heaven hollering praize Jeezus. Can you explain how the guy with the wrong clothes actually gate crashed the wedding party?. Thought not.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:30 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,361 posts, read 12,640,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Well, you should have not posted if you do not want to debate, simple as that.

You have shown me nothing. Jesus is not in the separating business you subscribe too no matter how much it appears to you that he is.
You're right, Jesus is not in the separating business. That has already happened (Isaiah 59:2). Jesus is in the redeeming business.

Nevertheless, there is overwhelming scriptural evidence that UR is a false doctrine.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:40 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,871,222 times
Reputation: 1009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Moses was dealing only with Israel in using the lifted up serpent. It is improper to use that cercumstance and try to import it contradict that "God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." (1 Tim.2:4-6).

All the nations will look to Him as their Savior.

Oh and one last thing, it is not "eternal life" they will miss out on but rather "eonian life" or as some translations have it "age-enduring life."
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
No it's not improper, Jesus made the connection.
The improper activity is the first "all" must = "all inclusive".
Here is the passage:

John 3:14-17 And, according as Moses exalts the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of
Mankind be exalted, (15) that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having
life eonian." (16) For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone
who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian." (17) For God does not
dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved
through Him."

Why would Jesus tell John the majority of mankind are going to an eternal hell (which He never did say) and later tell Paul that "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim.2:4-6)?

Why would Christ contradict Himself?

Next thing in the above lengthy passage is further proof He told John that the world (all humans) will be saved. How so? The "may" in "that the world *may* be saved" is not the "may" of doubt. It is a subjunctive and depends upon what went before it in the sentence. An example of a subjunctive is:
"I have a pen in my hand. I will loose my grip on the pen that it **may** be falling." The falling of the pen is dependent upon my loosing it. It shall surely fall when I loose my grip on it. Likewise the saving of the world is dependent upon God dispatching His Son into the world so that the world may be saved. Since God did dispatch His Son into the world, the world will be saved.

Those who do not believe on Jesus will perish. It doesn't say they go to hell for eternity since that would contradict too many scriptures telling us of God saving all mankind, justifying all mankind, heading up all mankind in Christ, reconciling all mankind and God being All in all mankind.



Quote:
btw .... about your one last thingy.......... it is.
No, actually it is impossible for AIWNIOS to mean eternal since it is an adjective derived from its noun form AIWN. Since no AIWN (eon) is eternal, it is impossible for its adjectival form to be greater than the noun from which it was derived.

Believers get eonian life. The eons will end (the bible tells me so). If the eons end and believers have eonian life or life pertaining to the coming eons, how will they live when the eons end? In the resurrection believers put on immortality and incorruption. So we continue to live when the eons end.

Any questions?
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:46 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,871,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post

Nevertheless, there is overwhelming scriptural evidence that UR is a false doctrine.
So Jesus, John, Paul, God are into teaching false doctrine and are wrong to tell us to charge and teach He is the Saviour of all mankind? Notice it doesn't say "God will have all mankind to be saved if man just does his part." No! It says "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . FOR (or the reason this is so is because) Christ gave Himself a ransom for ALL (mankind)" (1 Timothy 2:4-6).

One who has been ransomed MUST be freed. The Bible shows every animal or human who was ransomed had to be freed. Since all mankind have been ransomed, all mankind must be freed from slaver to sin and death and brought into the liberation of God's salvation.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:49 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,361 posts, read 12,640,092 times
Reputation: 2470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
So Jesus, John, Paul, God are into teaching false doctrine and are wrong to tell us to charge and teach He is the Saviour of all mankind? Notice it doesn't say "God will have all mankind to be saved if man just does his part." No! It says "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . FOR (or the reason this is so is because) Christ gave Himself a ransom for ALL (mankind)" (1 Timothy 2:4-6).

One who has been ransomed MUST be freed. The Bible shows every animal or human who was ransomed had to be freed. Since all mankind have been ransomed, all mankind must be freed from slaver to sin and death and brought into the liberation of God's salvation.
See post #5.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:59 PM
 
18,185 posts, read 16,750,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Wrong. He is writing to the "church at Corinth". If you really want to be that specific, then you should not twist the words of the Bible.

Maybe his letter was addressed to people who already knew Paul. Maybe some of the names and symbols he used referred to real things that he and his readers were aware of. He even refers to other things (outside of his letters) when he writes them sometimes. Don't ask me for examples of this, because if you need to be told what I'm talking about, then you should go back and read your Bible more. Do your own homework. You have no business arguing about the Bible if you don't know what is in it.

The fact that people can try to teach and preach about things that they don't have the full knowledge of is scary. Yet these people seem to have no fear in trying to do that, and in trying to run other people's lives.

Maybe this is what orthodox Christians have been doing for thousands of years. Some churches, like the Southern Baptist even teach that any preacher can interpret the Bible as he chooses. Maybe orthodox Christians as a group have been wrong for thousands of years. Maybe everything that they have said or written should be discounted.

One of the freedoms of being human (with a few exceptions like living in countries like Iran or Russia) is that we can form our own beliefs on what the Bible says and preach those beliefs to others. Whether the others will believe them or not depends on their level of gullibility and naivety. There's gulliblility and naivety in this form in amounts so large it'd fill an ocean. That's why ten thousands different opinions on the meaning of scripture whizz around here like bullets. Uniformity cannot possibly exist when freedom of speech is present. Which is why the fundamentalists will never be proven right any more than the atheists will ever be proven wrong. It's all strictly belief-based and no one can turn to God to prove to the other guy they're right because God won't clear the matter up with an answer.


Your best bet is to study as much as you can, learn as much as you can and then decide what makes the most sense to you. Deism will never make any sense to Mike just like atheism will never make any sense to jimmy just like fundamentalism will never make any sense to me.


Recognize the fact that every single one of us have probably been taught wrong religious stuff. Anyone who claims to have the truth is a fool and deluding themselves. If everyone could be honest with themselves and acknowledge this fact there'd be a lot less infighting around here and people would be more tolerant of views that conflict with their own.
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