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Old 02-10-2016, 08:53 AM
 
598 posts, read 241,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
When I read about Lively's oil rubber for the first time (not here), I thought, "Angel.". I'm still thinking that now. You get more of them in 'murica, ...like they have more demons, no, ALL the demons, in Africa.
I lean towards this as well

The dispatcher for the ambulance company knew of the man who appeared but nobody knew who he was or saw him come and go.
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Old 02-10-2016, 11:41 AM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As I not only told you, but provided examples, forgeries (Pseudepigrapha) were not accepted into the canon. Letters determined to be forgeries were rejected.
The Second Epistle of Peter, often referred to as Second Peter and written 2 Peter or in Roman numerals II Peter (especially in older references), is a book of the New Testament of the Bible, written in the name of Saint Peter, although the vast majority of modern scholars regard it as pseudepigraphical.

Second Peter quotes from and adapts Jude extensively,[2] identifies Jesus with God, and addresses a threatening heresy which had arisen because the anticipated Second Coming of Christ had not yet occurred. It is the only New Testament book to treat other New Testament writings as scripture. Second Peter was one of the last letters included in the New Testament canon and is one of the texts that were in dispute before the canon was finalized.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_Peter
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:16 PM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone View Post
When you go out as you say you will simply go from being a spirit and soul living within a physical body to no longer having a physical body......... but it will still be you spirit and soul with all of your memories intact

This is not me hearing from someone else but as the expression goes "already been there and already done that"

You will have the same experience I did with the disposition of your future up to God. Personally I would have preferred to have been allowed to stay but got sent back.......... you can click on my blog if you want to read of it, or you can tell yourself I am lying about the whole thing. The one thing you cannot say is I heard it first from someone else because I did not find out what I had witnessed while on the other side of this life is recorded in the Bible until another 5 years went by

Then it was another 5 years before I connected the dots and why the man leaning over had put oil on my chest that was "anointing me with oil and lifting me up before God in prayer" rather than having something to do with electric shock therapy that I mistakenly assumed at the time
"When you go out as you say you will simply go from being a spirit and soul living within a physical body to no longer having a physical body......... but it will still be you spirit and soul with all of your memories intact." -- Livelystone

What part of this statement represents anything other than utter make believe? It's a part of your belief system and I understand it perfectly well, but that does not change the fact that it is has been entirely MADE UP AND DECLARED TO BE TRUE. Nothing could be less obvious than declaring that an invisible part of you will go to an invisible place to spend eternity with your invisible friends when you die. This is a declaration made based on NO PHYSICAL FACT WHATSOEVER. And that I am afraid is pure make believe.

And that's the problem with your entire belief system. It has simply been imagined into existence and then declared it to be true. Why? Because this is the particular world view that you have been programmed from your earliest memory to accept as valid. This is exactly the same process that Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, etc., have undergone. If you would do an actual fact check on what it is that you think you believe, you would discover that every part of your belief is based on an interconnected network of empty assertions, foundationless assumptions and baseless traditions, BUT NO ACTUAL BASIS IN PHYSICAL EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER.

Now, all you have to do is prove me wrong. Show us an unmistakable foundation of fact. Provide us all with some indisputable physical evidence and reason to suppose that your claims and your beliefs are founded on clear, unassailable ACTUAL FACT, and not simply on an interconnected network of baseless assumptions and assertions, each reliant on the others for support, but absolutely NONE OF IT GROUNDED IN FACT. Show some basis in genuine fact for the apparently foundationless claims that you are making. If you can do that, THEN you can proceed to build your case for a flying reanimated corpse, and all the rest. Otherwise all you are doing is declaring that apparent nonsense is true because that is what you personally believe.
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:31 PM
 
20,325 posts, read 15,687,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Since you don't believe in God, it's pointless discussing the issue of whether the Bible is the word of God with you.

But with the specific issue of the authenticity of Paul's letters, while much of modern scholarship regards only seven of the letters which bear Paul's name to be authentic (not all scholars hold to that view by the way), the early church accepted all thirteen letters as genuine. And in point of fact, the early church did not accept letters which it knew to be Pseudepigraphical into the canon. The early church was very much concerned about the authenticity of the letters which claimed to be from the person whose name was stated as the author. Known forgeries were rejected. One of the criteria the early church used for acceptance of a letter into the New Testament canon was apostolicity. That is, it had to have been written by an apostle or by someone closely associated with an apostle.

While many scholars today believe that Pseudepigraphy (writing in someone else's name) was an acceptable practice in the early church, the reality is quite different. For instance, the Muratorian Canon, dated to c. A.D. 175, rejects the letters to the Laodiceans and the Alexandrians, and several others because they were forged in Paul's name.
''There is current also [an epistle] to (64) the Laodiceans, [6b] [and] another to the Alexandrians, [6c] [both] forged in Paul's (65) name to [further] the heresy of Marcion, and several others (66) which cannot be received into the catholic Church (67)— for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. (68)''

The Muratorian Fragment

Around A.D. 200, Serapion, the Bishop of Antioch learned that the Gospel of Peter was a forgery, and declared,
“For we, brethren, receive both Peter and the other apostles as Christ; but we reject intelligently the writings falsely ascribed to them, knowing that such were not handed down to us.

NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

It was because of the early churches concern about authenticity that several of the New Testament letters, i.e. Jude, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, were disputed for a time, only to be recognized as canonical later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As I not only told you, but provided examples, forgeries (Pseudepigrapha) were not accepted into the canon. Letters determined to be forgeries were rejected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
The Second Epistle of Peter, often referred to as Second Peter and written 2 Peter or in Roman numerals II Peter (especially in older references), is a book of the New Testament of the Bible, written in the name of Saint Peter, although the vast majority of modern scholars regard it as pseudepigraphical.

Second Peter quotes from and adapts Jude extensively,[2] identifies Jesus with God, and addresses a threatening heresy which had arisen because the anticipated Second Coming of Christ had not yet occurred. It is the only New Testament book to treat other New Testament writings as scripture. Second Peter was one of the last letters included in the New Testament canon and is one of the texts that were in dispute before the canon was finalized.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_Peter
I've already shown you that the early church did not accept known pseudepigraphical works into the canon regardless of what much of modern scholarship thinks.
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:47 PM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
Studying what the Bible has to say about death tends to not get one anywhere, and is frankly depressing. People can say what they want about what the Bible says about death but it is very much a "glass darkly" picture of what finally happens when our bodies kaput. Fortunately, there is more clarity available in the form of documented personal testimonies of people who have experienced the other side and come back, which are more tangible, and something one can engage with and find hope in.

Putting the clues / evidence together of real people's experiences of death confirms my position as a Christian universalist - one cannot hold to an eternal torment view after reading NDE testimonies. And the stupid thing is that God has made all the evidence and testimony plainly available through sites such as the following, that confirm or deny or indeed for me put a much clearer lense on what the bible 'might' imply about what happens in death.

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife
Wikipedia
Near Death Experiences

Research released in 2010 by University of Maribor, Slovenia had put near-death experiences down to high levels of carbon dioxide in the blood altering the chemical balance of the brain and tricking it into 'seeing' things.[88] Of the 52 patients, 11 reported NDEs.

NDE subjects have increased activity in the left temporal lobe.[3] Stimulation of the temporal lobe is known to induce hallucinations, out-of-body experiences and memory flashbacks.[91] In an experiment with one patient, electrical stimulation at the left temporoparietal junction lead to an illusion of another person being close to her.[92][93] Chris French has written that the "temporal lobe is almost certain to be involved in NDEs, given that both damage to and direct cortical stimulation of this area are known to produce a number of experiences corresponding to those of the NDE, including OBEs, hallucinations, and memory flashbacks."[62]

In 2011, Alexander Wutzler and his colleagues at the Charité University of Medicine in Berlin, Germany suggested that near-death experiences may be triggered by an increase of serotonin in the brain.[94][95] Charles Q. Choi in an article for the Scientific American concluded "scientific evidence suggests that all features of the near-death experience have some basis in normal brain function gone awry."[96]
A 2012 study led by neuroradiologist Renemane reached the conclusion that the NDE is a state of unconsciousness resembling oneiroid syndrome.

In a 2013 study, Marie Thonnard and colleagues suggested that the memories of NDEs are flashbulb memories of hallucinations.[98] The findings were in accordance with a 2014 study published in Frontiers in Human Neuroscience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

It's not that NDE's do not occur. The evidence suggests that they are philological in nature rather than spiritual or supernatural. This tends to explain why when they are experienced by individuals of different beliefs, the experiences they believe they had invariably corresponds closely to that person's particular system of belief. Those experiencing NDE typically experience what their particular world view has taught them.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:19 PM
 
1,498 posts, read 615,226 times
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Ah, the old chestnut. - low oxygen levels. ...Hence why people say they sense an experience of detachment from the body during the episode.

Ref: your last paragraph - people do not get NDE's based on what they believed - I saw a chart once which had experience categories on one axis and personal belief on the other - the matrix was dotted all over to correlate that confirmation bias was not happening.

Also, blind people get to see for the first time.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:26 PM
 
37,613 posts, read 25,300,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
Ah, the old chestnut. - low oxygen levels. ...Hence why people say they sense an experience of detachment from the body during the episode.
Ref: your last paragraph - people do not get NDE's based on what they believed - I saw a chart once which had experience categories on one axis and personal belief on the other - the matrix was dotted all over to correlate that confirmation bias was not happening.
Also, blind people get to see for the first time.
Altered states cannot be experienced with the sensory system dominating. The God Helmet revealed that the brain does sense and respond to weak "fields" and interprets them as a presence or OBE. The reason we do not normally sense them is because our senses are like a very loud TV program raising the noise level and drowning them out. That is why meditation and withdrawing from our sensory system enables us to experience them.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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"God's Word" in the Bible virtually never refers to the Bible itself. It is one of the titles of Christ. It refers to direct revelation (Example: "And the word of the Lord came to me saying ..."). When Christ says he has given the apostles his word, he's several centuries to early to have meant "I have given them the Bible."

I make no personal claims to having received new scripture, but the notion that the scriptural canon is closed is simply not supported by the Bible. There are passages taken out of context that are routinely abused to make the claim that scripture has ceased. Put them in proper context and chronology and it is very clear to anyone that they never taught any such thing. God can still add to the scriptural canon anytime he wants and has never said he wouldn't.

To me, the Word of God is personal revelation more so than any other definition. Much of that can and does come while reading and contemplating the Bible, but direct communication from divinity is ultimately what God wants all of us to experience. It is the fundamental purpose of the scriptures.
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Old 02-10-2016, 02:06 PM
 
Location: USA
3,066 posts, read 1,063,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I've already shown you that the early church did not accept known pseudepigraphical works into the canon regardless of what much of modern scholarship thinks.
2 Peter
Authorship and Date
"The author clearly affirms that he is Peter. In spite of this, tradition is by no means uniform on this attribution. Origen and Eusebius said that it was contested, and several eastern churches did not accept it. The objection was particularly strong in the Greek churches because of the manifest difference in style between 1 Pt. and 2 Pt. Modern scholars are almost unanimously convinced that Peter (or the author of 1 Pt.) cannot be the author 2 Pt." (Emphasis mine)

"2 Pt. seems to presuppose a collection of the letters of Paul which are regarded as Scripture (3:15). Whether this collection existed before the end of the 1st century or not, it certainly did not exist with this quality during the life of Peter. The delay in the Parousia is not itself a convincing argument against a later date; but the reference to the first generation of Christians as "the fathers" (3:2) who are dead cannot come from a first generation Christian. So also the apostles are joined with the prophets as heroes of the past (3:2). The dependence of 2 Pt. 2:1-3:3 on Jude is prior. It is granted that 2 Pt. 2:1-3:3 seems to be a digression and an interruption, but it does not show a lack of unity and authorship. 1 Pt. has a vocabulary of 496 words and 2 Pt. has a vocabulary pf 330 words, of which they have only 100 in common. These arguments are now accepted as convincing evidence that 2 Peter is not from Peter." (Emphasis mine)

"If it is not, the author and the date remain unknown. A date later than the fall of Jerusalem in 70 is as early as one may go; a date at the end of the 1st century or early 2nd century is much more probable, but dates ranging from 120 to 180 by some appear altogether too late. The attribution is a literary fiction, which was not regarded in the ancient world as we regard it now; but the attribution to Peter may indicate that the author had been a disciple of Peter who attempted to answer the question of the delay of the Parousia in terms which he remembered as those of Peter."

Canonicity
"Origen is the first witness of the canonicity of 2 Pt. In the 4th century, because of it's doubtful authorship, it was denied or doubted about as much as it was accepted. It was accepted in the west after 400." [Dictionary of the Bible; Peter, Epistles of; Pg.667 by John L. McKenzie, SJ]

Wikipedia
John L. McKenzie
John McKenzie taught for nineteen years at the Jesuit Theologate in West Baden, Indiana, before transferring to Loyola University Chicago. He left Loyola to become the first Catholic Faculty member at the University of Chicago Divinity School. Following this, he taught at the University of Notre Dame, at Seton Hall University, and at DePaul University. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

The late Dr. McKenzie was a Jesuit Priest, and as such cannot be charged with some anti-Christian bias. He possessed a PhD in theology and was highly regarded as both a historian and theologian.

Eusebius didn't believe that 2 Peter was authentic either.

Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 3.—The Epistles of the Apostles. [by Eusebius] (The REAL Eusebius)
1. One epistle of Peter, that called the first, is acknowledged as genuine. 1 And this the ancient elders 2 used freely in their own writings as an undisputed work. 3 But we have learned that his extant second Epistle does not belong to the canon; 4 yet, as it has appeared profitable to many, it has been used with the other Scriptures. (Emphasis mine)
Eusebius on the Canon of Scripture

So why was such a widely disputed book included into the canon? BECAUSE IT CONTAINED A SUPREMELY IMPORTANT TRACT CONCERNING THE DELAY OF THE SECOND COMING (PAROUSIA). 2 Peter was included into the canon by the fledgling Catholic church as an act of convenience and ecclesiastical necessity once it had become clear that Jesus was NOT just about to return any second now. It's been 2,000 years, and everyone who lived 2,000 years ago IS STILL RELIABLY DEAD! And yet that's still not clear enough for many.

Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 02-10-2016 at 02:59 PM..
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Old 02-10-2016, 02:13 PM
 
Location: USA
3,066 posts, read 1,063,772 times
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Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
Ah, the old chestnut. - low oxygen levels. ...Hence why people say they sense an experience of detachment from the body during the episode.

Ref: your last paragraph - people do not get NDE's based on what they believed - I saw a chart once which had experience categories on one axis and personal belief on the other - the matrix was dotted all over to correlate that confirmation bias was not happening.

Also, blind people get to see for the first time.
Pilots who black out from high G turns regularly describe "near death" experiences. They seem to float outside of their bodies, and have vivid flashbacks to previous memories. During high G maneuvers, blood is forced from the brain and a blackout occurs due to lack of oxygen to the brain. High levels of carbon dioxide in the blood is the very same thing as a lack of oxygen, because the carbon dioxide molecule displaces or replaces the oxygen molecule. The experience of hypoxia and blacking out typically only lasts pilots for some seconds however, even though the pilots believed it went on much longer. There is a physiological cause you see, and not a supernatural one.

Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 02-10-2016 at 02:57 PM..
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