U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-26-2016, 02:37 PM
 
1,498 posts, read 615,619 times
Reputation: 295

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Amen!!

But some of us believe in treating others as we wish to be treated. If I wish to marry and be faithful, I hope the same thing for gay people.

In a small group fellowship meeting just one week ago today, a woman felt secure enough to come out of her "comfort" zone (the discussion topic) to tell us her son is gay. Then one of the men in our group of eight, stated that when he called his mother to tell her he had gotten married (at age 45), she asked him if it was a woman!!

So, yes, the church and many who fill its pews have done a simply terrible job of confirming for gay people that the Good News is for them, too. The pastor of the small start-up church that sponsors these meetings said he had just read an article in his seminary class that, despite the horrendous way gays have been treated, 40% say they believe in the Christian God, and Jesus as His Son.

The Good News must be good for everyone or its good for no one.

Indeed. The legal status of 'married' is not needed in God's sight - he's looking at people's hearts and where and with whom they sleep. However, the ceremony side of it and public nature of a wedding is emotionally important, but it isn't enough to sustain commitment in a marriage - only love can do that.

I pray that God brings those of us in the household of faith, who are able to love and be Christ to LGBT folks, into contact with them. Not so they can be churched, but so they can be loved, and shown mercy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-26-2016, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,289 posts, read 20,939,978 times
Reputation: 9977
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
What is the end, and what happens to those who failed to endure?
"The end" is the "final judgment," just as the words imply, and those who failed to endure will not receive the same eternal reward as those who did.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2016, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,293 posts, read 14,159,711 times
Reputation: 10133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Oh my gosh. The explanations that people come up with never cease to amaze me. Everything Jesus said was to the Jews! How do you decide which commandments you want to try to wiggle out of?

Did I say everything? Actually - in a sense, who was He actually talking to at that point in time? ... not me ... not you... The Jews (disciples). We can extrapolate some things to apply to us, but there are some things that do not apply. Should blind people go and wash in a pool to cure their blindness, or was He talking to a specific person? What question was Jesus answering in Matthew 24 when He brought up enduring to the end?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2016, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,289 posts, read 20,939,978 times
Reputation: 9977
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Did I say everything? Actually - in a sense, who was He actually talking to at that point in time? ... not me ... not you... The Jews (disciples). We can extrapolate some things to apply to us, but there are some things that do not apply. Should blind people go and wash in a pool to cure their blindness, or was He talking to a specific person? What question was Jesus answering in Matthew 24 when He brought up enduring to the end?
He was speaking to His disciples, who were asking Him about His return and the signs that would precede it. He told them that they must endure to the end in order to be saved, and then clarified that "the end" would come after His gospel had been preached throughout the world. It sounds pretty straightforward to me, but apparently you interpret it differently than I do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2016, 03:05 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
15,244 posts, read 8,265,261 times
Reputation: 1548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
You tell me, 'cause from where I'm sitting it sounds kind of like a "Which came first -- the chicken or the egg?" kind of question. You'd probably say that a decision wasn't genuine would not result in a life lived for Christ. But if I were to say that we must live our lives for Christ in order to ultimately be sanctified, people are going to accuse me of believing in a "works-based salvation." Do you believe because you're converted to a life of Christian service or are you converted to a life of Christian service because you believe?
The latter. Faith comes first.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2016, 03:07 PM
 
20,326 posts, read 15,692,216 times
Reputation: 7451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I agree. The Bible says that he who "endures to the end" will be saved. Of course there's that little matter of what it actually means to be "saved," and there's quite a range of opinions on that.
Katzpur, will you consider the apostle Paul's 'opinion' on the matter?


Paul states in Ephesians 2:5 that we (with reference to those who have believed on Jesus) have been made alive.
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
Notice the phrase, 'made us alive together with Christ.' 'Made us alive' is in the Greek aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice. The aorist tense in the indicative mood refers to action that took place in past time.
''In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.''
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
God made the believer alive. Paul then goes on to say, 'by grace you are saved,' which is present tense. The ones who have been made alive by God are those who had been dead in their trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1). These believers had once been dead (spiritual death is in view) but are now alive (spiritually). That is, they have eternal life now, in the present.


When a person first believes in Jesus he is saved from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death.

After having been saved from the penalty of sin, that believer who grows in his spiritual life is being saved from the power of sin in his life.

And when the believer dies physically and enters into the presence of God he will saved from the presence of sin. When the believer dies physically he leaves behind the old sin nature.


You referred to those who endure to the end being saved.
Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
However, eternal salvation is not in view in this passage. The context of the passage involves the still future Tribulation and it refers to the physical deliverance of those Tribulational believers who are not martyered but who survive to the end of the Tribulation to go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. The Millennial kingdom will begin with believers only. This means that there has to be believers still in their mortal bodies coming out of the Tribulation to populate the Millennial kingdom. In time people will be born in the Millennium who will not believe on Jesus. But at the beginning of the Millennial kingdom there will be believers only.

It's important to keep in mind that the Greek word σωτήριον - sōtērion - salvation does not only apply to eternal deliverance and is not only used in that manner in the Bible.

Dr. Louis A. Barbieri, Professor of Theology at Moody Bible Institute, commenting on Matthew 24:13, states,
Those who remain faithful to the Lord until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt.24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one's eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. They will enter the kingdom in physical bodies.

[The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 77]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2016, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,289 posts, read 20,939,978 times
Reputation: 9977
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
The latter. Faith comes first.
And what follows? Obedience. And if you're not obedient, you don't have true faith. If you have a true and living faith in Christ, you will be faithful to Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2016, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,293 posts, read 14,159,711 times
Reputation: 10133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
He was speaking to His disciples, who were asking Him about His return and the signs that would precede it. He told them that they must endure to the end in order to be saved, and then clarified that "the end" would come after His gospel had been preached throughout the world. It sounds pretty straightforward to me, but apparently you interpret it differently than I do.
Right - He was speaking about the end of the age. Not sure where you are on the rapture -but as I understand it the church will be gone (after the gospel has been preached to the world), and time will be in the last week of years for the Jews (book of Daniel). And those in that day who endure to the end will be saved... and it will be real endurance - based on looking at some of the events in the book of Revelation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2016, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,289 posts, read 20,939,978 times
Reputation: 9977
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Katzpur, will you consider the apostle Paul's 'opinion' on the matter?
He seems like a fairly reliable source to me.

Quote:
Paul states in Ephesians 2:5 that we (with reference to those who have believed on Jesus) have been made alive.
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
Notice the phrase, 'made us alive together with Christ.' 'Made us alive' is in the Greek aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice. The aorist tense in the indicative mood refers to action that took place in past time.
''In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.''
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
God made the believer alive. Paul then goes on to say, 'by grace you are saved,' which is present tense. The ones who have been made alive by God are those who had been dead in their trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1). These believers had once been dead (spiritual death is in view) but are now alive (spiritually). That is, they have eternal life now, in the present.


When a person first believes in Jesus he is saved from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death.

After having been saved from the penalty of sin, that believer who grows in his spiritual life is being saved from the power of sin in his life.

And when the believer dies physically and enters into the presence of God he will saved from the presence of sin. When the believer dies physically he leaves behind the old sin nature.
I agree. Mormons don't typically speak of "being saved" in the present tense because we do believe that the "fulness of salvation" (aka "sanctification") is a process and not just something that happened to you at 5:32 P.M. on Friday, February 26, 2016. If push came to shove, though, we would agree that the word can be used in the present tense, as Paul uses it. A sermon by LDS Apostle, Dallin Oaks, back in 1998 explains our position on what it means to be saved. It's called, aptly enough, "Are You Saved?"It's not particularly long, but if you want to understand the LDS position, it's definitely worth reading. And He does agree with what you said about salvation applying to the present as well as the future. My main contention is against the belief in "once saved, always saved," since I do believe a person can turn from Christ once he has accepted Him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2016, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,578 posts, read 31,974,824 times
Reputation: 9423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
"The end" is the "final judgment," just as the words imply, and those who failed to endure will not receive the same eternal reward as those who did.
So, then salvation = rewards.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top