U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-26-2016, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,872,370 times
Reputation: 9950

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
So, then salvation = rewards.
No. They are not one and the same, but with the fulness of salvation come rewards that don't come otherwise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-26-2016, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,872,370 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Right - He was speaking about the end of the age. Not sure where you are on the rapture -but as I understand it the church will be gone (after the gospel has been preached to the world), and time will be in the last week of years for the Jews (book of Daniel). And those in that day who endure to the end will be saved... and it will be real endurance - based on looking at some of the events in the book of Revelation.
Okay, then we apparently do not agree, because I believe that we must all endure to the end, not just those who are alive at the Second Coming. I don't believe God sets one standard for one group of His children and another standard for the rest of them. We all have the responsibility to be faithful to Him forever and not turn away from Him at some point in time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2016, 06:45 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike555 View Post
katzpur, will you consider the apostle paul's 'opinion' on the matter?


Paul states in ephesians 2:5 that we (with reference to those who have believed on jesus) have been made alive.
ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with christ (by grace you are saved),
notice the phrase, 'made us alive together with christ.' 'made us alive' is in the greek aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice. The aorist tense in the indicative mood refers to action that took place in past time.
''in the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the english simple past tense.''
greek verbs (shorter definitions)
god made the believer alive. Paul then goes on to say, 'by grace you are saved,' which is present tense. The ones who have been made alive by god are those who had been dead in their trespasses and sins (ephesians 2:1). these believers had once been dead (spiritual death is in view) but are now alive (spiritually). That is, they have eternal life now, in the present.


When a person first believes in jesus he is saved from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death.

After having been saved from the penalty of sin, that believer who grows in his spiritual life is being saved from the power of sin in his life.

And when the believer dies physically and enters into the presence of god he will saved from the presence of sin. When the believer dies physically he leaves behind the old sin nature.


You referred to those who endure to the end being saved.
matthew 24:13 "but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
however, eternal salvation is not in view in this passage. The context of the passage involves the still future tribulation and it refers to the physical deliverance of those tribulational believers who are not martyered but who survive to the end of the tribulation to go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. The millennial kingdom will begin with believers only. This means that there has to be believers still in their mortal bodies coming out of the tribulation to populate the millennial kingdom. In time people will be born in the millennium who will not believe on jesus. But at the beginning of the millennial kingdom there will be believers only.

It's important to keep in mind that the greek word σωτήριον - sōtērion - salvation does not only apply to eternal deliverance and is not only used in that manner in the bible.

Dr. Louis a. Barbieri, professor of theology at moody bible institute, commenting on matthew 24:13, states,
those who remain faithful to the lord until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (matt.24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one's eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the savior during the tribulation. They will enter the kingdom in physical bodies.

[the bible knowledge commentary, new testament, an exposition of the scriptures by dallas seminary faculty, p. 77]
Quote:
Originally Posted by katzpur View Post
he seems like a fairly reliable source to me.

i agree. Mormons don't typically speak of "being saved" in the present tense because we do believe that the "fulness of salvation" (aka "sanctification") is a process and not just something that happened to you at 5:32 p.m. On friday, february 26, 2016. If push came to shove, though, we would agree that the word can be used in the present tense, as paul uses it. A sermon by lds apostle, dallin oaks, back in 1998 explains our position on what it means to be saved. It's called, aptly enough, "are you saved?"it's not particularly long, but if you want to understand the lds position, it's definitely worth reading. And he does agree with what you said about salvation applying to the present as well as the future. My main contention is against the belief in "once saved, always saved," since i do believe a person can turn from christ once he has accepted him.
Yes, I agree that Paul is a reliable source as well.

Thanks for posting the article. I read through it three times. According to Elder Oaks, the LDS attaches at least six different meanings to the terms ''saved/salvation'' with some pertaining to the present and others to the future. In some ways salvation is assured such as in everyone being saved from the permanence of death through the resurrection of Jesus. Well, it is true that everyone will be resurrected. Some to everlasting life, and others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2). However, Elder Oaks referred to 1 Corinthians 15:22 as the basis for his statement. But that particular passage actually is referring to believers in Christ being resurrected - to those who are Christ's at His coming (1 Cor. 15:23).

On the other hand he speaks of salvation from sin and the consequences of sin being conditional based on obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. And that final salvation requires continuing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.

What exactly then do Mormons mean by 'final salvation?' Because Elder Oaks also states that ''we affirm that every person who ever lived upon the face of the earth—except for a very few—is assured of salvation'' in the sense of ''being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come.''

That then is virtual universal salvation. It would seem that according to the LDS, everyone, except for a few will be saved, and that the few who won't be will be because of what? Because they did not continue to repent, and be faithful, or be in continual service, and did not endure to the end?

Elder Oaks speaks of being saved by grace after all we can do. He then states what he means ''by all we can do.'' -'' And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end.''

But what did the apostle Paul say about grace?
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
No matter what it is you ''do'', be it keeping the commandments or enduring to the end, if those things are necessary for eternal salvation, then they are ''works.'' Any ''doing,'' any effort on your part, in order to obtain eternal salvation is contrary to what Paul says grace is about. Grace is all that God has done on our behalf. God's grace does not kick in after ''all we can do.''

When the crowd to whom Jesus was speaking asked Him what works of God they could do by which they could obtain eternal salvation, Jesus told them that the work of God was to believe in Him.
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." 28] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
What Jesus referred to as ''work'' in that context was simply to believe on Him for eternal life.

Did not Jesus tell the Samaritan woman that if she simply asked for eternal life it would be given to her?
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." . . . 14] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
Is not a gift free? If you must keep commandments, or endure for eternal life, can eternal life be said to be a free gift? But it is said to be free. It is said to be a gift.
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
As I stated in post #76, the phrase, 'those who endure will be saved,'' refers to the physical deliverance of those believers in the still future Tribulation, who having escaped martyrdom and lived to the end of the Tribulation going into the Millennium in their mortal bodies. This is the context of Matt. 10:22, Mark 13:13, and Matt. 24:13. Elder Oaks referred to Matt. 10:22 and Mark 13:13 for his argument that one must endure to the end to be saved. But in both of those passages, as in Matthew 24:13 Jesus, is looking far ahead to that future time of Tribulation after the church has been raptured.

Enduring to the end cannot and does not mean that you have to endure to the end in order to obtain eternal life, otherwise eternal life would not be a free gift.

Does God take back His gifts? Most emphatically not. And that fact is so stated.
Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29] for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
While in context God's dealings with Israel is being addressed, the principle is universal. God does not revoke His gifts and calling. He does not revoke what He has given or whom He has chosen.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2016, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,872,370 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Thanks for posting the article. I read through it three times.
You're very welcome. I'm seriously impressed that you would have taken the time to actually read it, apparently with a sincere desire to understand the LDS position. That is something not all that many people are willing to do.

Quote:
According to Elder Oaks, the LDS attaches at least six different meanings to the terms ''saved/salvation'' with some pertaining to the present and others to the future. In some ways salvation is assured such as in everyone being saved from the permanence of death through the resurrection of Jesus. Well, it is true that everyone will be resurrected. Some to everlasting life, and others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2). However, Elder Oaks referred to 1 Corinthians 15:22 as the basis for his statement. But that particular passage actually is referring to believers in Christ being resurrected - to those who are Christ's at His coming (1 Cor. 15:23).
I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree that verse 23 is tied to verse 22 in the way you suggest. Verse 22 does say that death comes to all through the fall of Adam. I see "all" as meaning "all." All will be resurrected. That verse does not, of course, imply that all will end up in Heaven. We believe that all of those who are "Christ's at His coming" will be resurrected as a part of the first resurrection at the beginning of His millennial reign. We believe that those who are not His at that time will be resurrected at the end of the Millennium, after they have spent that thousand year period enduring the punishment for their sins that He would have happily borne for them had they been willing to let Him. And yes, I realize that verse 23 doesn't say that. I would have to point you to other scriptures to clarify that point. So, we believe that all will be resurrected and that almost all will receive some degree of heavenly glory. Ultimately "every knee shall bow... and every tongue shall confess to God" that Jesus is the Christ. Those who were not resurrected until the end of the Millennium will, therefore, do precisely that, but it will be too late for them to be granted the same heavenly rewards as those who accepted Him previously.

Quote:
On the other hand he speaks of salvation from sin and the consequences of sin being conditional based on obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. And that final salvation requires continuing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.

What exactly then do Mormons mean by 'final salvation?' Because Elder Oaks also states that ''we affirm that every person who ever lived upon the face of the earth—except for a very few—is assured of salvation'' in the sense of ''being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come.''
We believe that there is a "judgment" at the moment of death, but that this is not the "final judgment." (I'm guessing that's what you meant when you wrote "final salvation," since I didn't see the term "final salvation" in his talk.) We don't believe that anyone goes immediately to either Heaven or Hell at the moment of death, but that the spirit of the deceased goes instead to an intermediate realm known to us as "the Spirit World." This is not so much a place as it is a state of mind. For believers, it's a state of "Paradise," but for the wicked, it's more of a "Prison." (This is not Purgatory; we don't believe in Purgatory.) We believe that our spirits are cognizant beings who can continue to learn and grow and make choices during this period of time, and that those who have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ during their lives will have the opportunity prior to the final judgment. Only when everyone has had the chance to hear, understand, and accept Jesus Christ's gospel (as taught by His followers in the Spirit World) will all be judged individually and given their eternal reward.

Quote:
That then is virtual universal salvation. It would seem that according to the LDS, everyone, except for a few will be saved, and that the few who won't be will be because of what? Because they did not continue to repent, and be faithful, or be in continual service, and did not endure to the end?
Actually, we believe that the only ones who will not receive any of the glory God has in store for mankind are the ones who deny Christ after having a perfect knowledge of Him. For instance, when Christ's Apostles saw Him transfigured before their eyes, they came to this perfect knowledge. Previously, they had accepted Him on faith, but this was proof, absolutely irrefutable proof, that He was who He had claimed to be. Had they witnessed what they did and then denied the whole thing, that would have made them candidates for "Outer Darkness" (i.e. the LDS term describing a place and state of existence completely devoid of God's glory). We believe that God is just about as forgiving as it is possible for Him to be, and if Thomas, one of Christ's closest friends, was unwilling to believe that He had been resurrected without seeing Him for himself, God would not expect any more from us. In other words, we believe He's going to be very, very merciful and will banish from Heaven only those who are basically beyond redemption.

Quote:
Elder Oaks speaks of being saved by grace after all we can do. He then states what he means ''by all we can do.'' -'' And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end.''
"After all we can do" is a phrase that is often misinterpreted by non-Mormons. Perhaps if he'd said, "When all is said and done..." people would understand it a little better. Yes, we are required to repent -- not only prior to being baptized, but continually throughout the rest of our lives. Otherwise, our repentance is really not very sincere. We all make mistakes and we all sin, but we are expected to remain faithful to Jesus Christ once we have accepted Him.

Quote:
But what did the apostle Paul say about grace?
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
No matter what it is you ''do'', be it keeping the commandments or enduring to the end, if those things are necessary for eternal salvation, then they are ''works.''
I would say that "works" are necessary in order to receive "the fulness of salvation," but not not necessary just to make it to Heaven. It might make more sense if I were just to say that "works" are not necessary to be "justified" or "made clean" by Jesus Christ's sacrifice, but they are necessary in order to be "sanctified" or "exalted" and to be "made holy." And after all, even "belief" can be considered a work, as it takes a great deal of effort for some people to do even that.

Quote:
Any ''doing,'' any effort on your part, in order to obtain eternal salvation is contrary to what Paul says grace is about. Grace is all that God has done on our behalf. God's grace does not kick in after ''all we can do.''
Again, think of that phrase as meaning "after all is said and done." No, grace doesn't just kick in as a last-minute game-changer. Grace is unmerited favor, which is what we are granted regardless of what we do and how we live. Rewards are earned, and the Bible states this as clearly as it says that it is by grace that we are saved. Our becoming all that God has given us the potential to become is made possible by grace. We are simply incapable of doing it on our own.

Quote:
When the crowd to whom Jesus was speaking asked Him what works of God they could do by which they could obtain eternal salvation, Jesus told them that the work of God was to believe in Him.
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." 28] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
What Jesus referred to as ''work'' in that context was simply to believe on Him for eternal life.
Gosh, I simply can't believe that, based upon His continually telling us how He expected us to live our lives. You can't possibly ignore the many, many verses that stress the importance of our being obedient and faithful to Him -- at least I can't imagine why you would. The fact that He wants us to be better than we could possibly be on our own does not in any way lessen the value of His gift to us. To me, it makes His gift all that more valuable.

Quote:
Did not Jesus tell the Samaritan woman that if she simply asked for eternal life it would be given to her?
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." . . . 14] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
Perhaps we have a difference of opinion as to what "the water" Christ gives us is.

Quote:
Is not a gift free? If you must keep commandments, or endure for eternal life, can eternal life be said to be a free gift? But it is said to be free. It is said to be a gift.
Well, as I said before, if it is truly "free," then it should be given even to unbelievers. Requiring someone to believe is putting a price on the gift. But if you think of the blessing of being welcomed into Heaven for doing nothing more than experiencing mortality, then the gift is free indeed. And if you think of the fact that "few there be who find the way" meaning that there are few who will end up receiving the "fulness of salvation" (i.e. sanctification or exaltation), it all makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
As I stated in post #76, the phrase, 'those who endure will be saved,'' refers to the physical deliverance of those believers in the still future Tribulation, who having escaped martyrdom and lived to the end of the Tribulation going into the Millennium in their mortal bodies. This is the context of Matt. 10:22, Mark 13:13, and Matt. 24:13. Elder Oaks referred to Matt. 10:22 and Mark 13:13 for his argument that one must endure to the end to be saved. But in both of those passages, as in Matthew 24:13 Jesus, is looking far ahead to that future time of Tribulation after the church has been raptured.
Apparently we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

Quote:
Enduring to the end cannot and does not mean that you have to endure to the end in order to obtain eternal life, otherwise eternal life would not be a free gift.
Again, we see "Eternal Life" as being synonymous with "exaltation," and not with mere "salvation" (the avoidance of hellfire, so to speak). And if the gift of life after death in Heaven (even will fewer heavenly rewards than might have been possible) is given to "all" (as 1 Corinthians 15:23 says will be the case), then it's truly "free."

Quote:
Does God take back His gifts? Most emphatically not. And that fact is so stated.
Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29] for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
While in context God's dealings with Israel is being addressed, the principle is universal. God does not revoke His gifts and calling. He does not revoke what He has given or whom He has chosen.
No, He does not take back His gifts, but while you think that He promises those gifts to those who merely "believe," I think that He promises some sort of a pleasant afterlife to essentially all and an even greater reward to those who are faithful and obedient to Him.

Last edited by Katzpur; 02-26-2016 at 08:36 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-27-2016, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,480 posts, read 31,872,436 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
No. They are not one and the same, but with the fulness of salvation come rewards that don't come otherwise.
You said those who endure are saved, and you added those who do not endure do not receive rewards. It sounds like you are saying that those who do not endure are saved, but without rewards. It also says that everyone is saved, which renders "those who endure are saved" meaningless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-27-2016, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,872,370 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You said those who endure are saved, and you added those who do not endure do not receive rewards. It sounds like you are saying that those who do not endure are saved, but without rewards.
Mormons are essentially universalists, although they don't frequently use that word. We do believe that, with very few exceptions, everyone who has ever lived will ultimately receive a portion of God's glory (you might think of that as our "heavenly reward"). The only ones we believe won't -- and who will be forever consigned to "Outer Darkness," a place completely devoid of God's glory -- are those who deny Christ after having been given a perfect knowledge of Him. We don't believe there will be many of these individuals.

When I use the phrase "endure to the end," I mean "remain faithful to Christ after having accepted Him as one's Savior." Mormons believe that greater obedience and faithfulness will result in greater rewards in Heaven, the greatest of these being "exaltation."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-27-2016, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,480 posts, read 31,872,436 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Mormons are essentially universalists, although they don't frequently use that word. We do believe that, with very few exceptions, everyone who has ever lived will ultimately receive a portion of God's glory (you might think of that as our "heavenly reward"). The only ones we believe won't -- and who will be forever consigned to "Outer Darkness," a place completely devoid of God's glory -- are those who deny Christ after having been given a perfect knowledge of Him. We don't believe there will be many of these individuals.

When I use the phrase "endure to the end," I mean "remain faithful to Christ after having accepted Him as one's Savior." Mormons believe that greater obedience and faithfulness will result in greater rewards in Heaven, the greatest of these being "exaltation."
OK, so you are saying it is not only those who endure to the end who are saved, but pretty much everyone is saved, endure or not.

With that view the "saved" converts to "receive rewards": Those who endure to the end will receive rewards.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-27-2016, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,872,370 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
OK, so you are saying it is not only those who endure to the end who are saved, but pretty much everyone is saved, endure or not.
If, by "saved" you mean "granted reprieve from eternal punishment," then yes, that's what I'm saying.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-27-2016, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,200 posts, read 14,096,059 times
Reputation: 10087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Okay, then we apparently do not agree, because I believe that we must all endure to the end, not just those who are alive at the Second Coming. I don't believe God sets one standard for one group of His children and another standard for the rest of them. We all have the responsibility to be faithful to Him forever and not turn away from Him at some point in time.
Of course you need to be faithful to Him. I won't get into it, but the tribulation period will be different... Sort of like the OT is different from the NT.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-28-2016, 02:58 PM
 
17,696 posts, read 8,870,974 times
Reputation: 1485
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Of course you need to be faithful to Him. I won't get into it, but the tribulation period will be different... Sort of like the OT is different from the NT.
There will be no tribulation, other than what you experience in this life.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer.

For I have overcome the world.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top