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Old 02-23-2016, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
2,202 posts, read 1,321,337 times
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Well I'm an evangelical and yes let's invite the Witnesses dogma as a theory rather than a biblical fact. In fairness the bible speaks of "sleep" as perhaps a condition prior to being "caught up" with a chronology that suggests "It ain't happen'in until judgment". So are we talking judgment day or a series of judgments? We non-Witnesses believe " absence with the body presence with the Lord", which implies immediate separation at death, but even I cannot guarantee that timeline as it isn't clarified . Do we "sleep " for perhaps centuries as in death time is moot? I have to meet the Witnesses half way at least. They are far better end-times experts than most christian faiths.the later unknowing nearly NOTHING End-times electing happy happy wee! wee! church.
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Old 02-23-2016, 06:01 PM
 
2,531 posts, read 1,943,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Mike, if a believer dies and goes to heaven, why did Paul say if there is no resurrection, vain is our faith?

And if the believer dies and goes straight to heaven when he dies, why then does Jesus even have to come back and we meet Him in the air AFTER we are resurrected?

Why is it that "And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven" (Joh_3:13)?

David didn't ascend into heaven as Peter said.

Thessalonians reveals to us that the only time we meet the Lord is in the air and that ALL believers meet Him at the same time. It is not a one-at-a-time meeting.
Dear Eusebius, I have in the past asked those questions myself but have I believe found those answers. It becomes clear when you realize that there are several parts of Heaven but we more then not think of Heaven as one place.

The Heaven that Jesus said no one has gone to or from is the Throne Room also called the "uttermost part of Heaven".

Paradise another part of Heaven is the 3rd Heaven where all who have died in the faith have gone awaiting [but busy] to go to the Throne Room so as to sit with Him and experience somewhat what it is like to reign in righteousness over a New Creation as the Book of Revelation says.

The 1st and 2nd heavens are the atmosphere and outer space and they are the physical heavens.

Then there is the Kingdom of Heaven within the soul and spirit. What we experience is a foretaste of the greater powers of the Heaven to come.

MK 13:27 "And then shall he send His angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of Heaven." This a statement that says "from" and "to"

No matter what Heaven one is referring to, it is commonly referred to as up there because it is higher/beyond the physical realm. Knowing this, I now see what the Scripture means when it says that the dead in Christ will rise first and we which are alive at Christ's return will rise to meet them and the Lord in the "air". If they are already up in a higher place then where will they rise to? Well, I say, to the Throne Room where the "Air" of Holiness comes from so as to give breath to the souls of those in the other but temporary parts of Heaven.

Consider the metaphors in this Scripture:
1THESS 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Clouds are metaphorically used for Glory Clouds wherein is the Water of Life and "air" as Holiness for the soul to breath and live.

Physical clouds and air have no value in Heaven but as metaphors they describe spiritual things very aptly. No wonder then why Jesus said in JN 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of Heavenly things?" The Heavenly is always described in earthly ways because it is our abode. The metaphors in and of themselves would have no meaning to an unbeliever but the Kingdom is not in mere word but in Power. To a believer the words edify because of the Spirit of Truth and Life in Christ Jesus. And so He spoke in parable, metaphors but quickened by the Spirit to share what the world sees as foolishness but Life to a believer.

Again look at all these metaphors:
IS 4:5 "And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defense."
Here we see a cloud upon the individual and upon the churches. No ordinary clouds but clouds of Glory and of such will the Lord return with for each believer. REV 1:7 Behold, He comes with clouds; and every eye shall see Him,--"
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Old 02-23-2016, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
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Without death there would be massive overpopulation. Death is not a punishment.
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,571,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
I disagree - let's not forget this is the Christianity section - we are allowed "baseless assertions".

Plenty of people know what happens when you die. OP, have a look on:
Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

In the light of their experiences you may be more empowered to embrace the life you have now, before the one you'll have next.
The operative phrase is near death experiences, and they are both personal and subjective and so provide no evidence or corroboration to others.

Why do we need empowerment to live the life we have now? Are we in some way unable to do that? I suggest that we are only hindered by lifelong conditioning to think that mortality is somehow a Bad Thing to cower in terror of, that this life is of only cursory and tutorial value and that we must not enjoy or value this life, but instead defer any certainty of justice, closure, peace and joy to the other side of the grave.

But that is just my view. Of course, as the song goes, this is your party and you can cry if you want to.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Panama City, FL
2,569 posts, read 729,009 times
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Concerning being dead, the scriptures say that until Christ comes (into us), that is, the Holy Spirit vivifies us and brings us to life, i.e. makes us 'wake up spiritually', we are "dead in trespasses and sins". Once we are alive in this way, having been awakened from the state of spiritual death, we are called to die yet again by following Christ into death, signified by baptism. This is symbolic, yet it points to the reality of the thing we are called to do - to lay down our lives for others. I understand that your initial post was about "what happens when we die physically" - but it prompted me to share some thoughts on being alive and being dead. I believe if people die without having been made alive, they will find Christ on the other side, but blessed are those who find Christ while still in these mortal bodies.
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:21 PM
 
598 posts, read 240,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic View Post
Concerning being dead, the scriptures say that until Christ comes (into us), that is, the Holy Spirit vivifies us and brings us to life, i.e. makes us 'wake up spiritually', we are "dead in trespasses and sins". Once we are alive in this way, having been awakened from the state of spiritual death, we are called to die yet again by following Christ into death, signified by baptism. This is symbolic, yet it points to the reality of the thing we are called to do - to lay down our lives for others. I understand that your initial post was about "what happens when we die physically" - but it prompted me to share some thoughts on being alive and being dead. I believe if people die without having been made alive, they will find Christ on the other side, but blessed are those who find Christ while still in these mortal bodies.

This is a good post

I tried to rep you for this post but was told I had to spread some around before I could rep you again?…………….. considering the conflicts in our very few interactions I am surprised the default message would say "again"

As far as your comment about those who die without finding Christ in this life will see Him on the other side……… I agree and this is when all atheist will receive their awakening to a truth they have always denied.

On the other hand those who have "met Christ" in this life but done nothing with it, are in danger of the receiving the fulness given to the man who buried his one talent only to have the Lord take it from him

However, and as it always is, the greater damnation is always to those who lead others to walk on the wrong path.

Still, the second death will serve its purpose and those who have not chosen (or succeeded) to die to their flesh in this life that is the time of the first death, will do so in the next life

Jesus spoke of them as persons who would not be released from their sentence until they had completed it to its fulness (if needed I can find the scripture to support this but it is late and the day has been long for me)
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Old 02-24-2016, 12:22 AM
 
1,489 posts, read 612,756 times
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^^^^ This.

Jer 23:1 "Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!" declares the LORD.

There's nothing like a bit of woe spreading.

I'm grateful regularly for not being under those who lead others to walk on the wrong path, and also the wisdom that we are individually charged with testing the Spirit of what we hear preached. And I would always challenge anyone to test what I say to them, with the Spirit of Christ, which by implication means they are in Christ and continually working on imbibing Him, Who leads us into all truth.
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Old 02-24-2016, 12:42 AM
 
1,489 posts, read 612,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
The operative phrase is near death experiences, and they are both personal and subjective and so provide no evidence or corroboration to others.

Why do we need empowerment to live the life we have now? Are we in some way unable to do that? I suggest that we are only hindered by lifelong conditioning to think that mortality is somehow a Bad Thing to cower in terror of, that this life is of only cursory and tutorial value and that we must not enjoy or value this life, but instead defer any certainty of justice, closure, peace and joy to the other side of the grave.

But that is just my view. Of course, as the song goes, this is your party and you can cry if you want to.
In the real world there's a spread, applying to many populations of things, called a 'normal distribution'. So, with respect to the emotional state of people, at a party, you may have some, a small proportion that are crying, and crying for various reasons. I think that song is with reference to the host of the party wanting a good cry however. Of course, the general bunch of a population are normally not crying, and that has to be good news - it would be draining if we had to cry all the time. I hope you're not crying Mord.
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Old 02-24-2016, 12:47 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TySky View Post
Okay I was raised a jehovahs witness they are christians but a different type. When it comes to death they believe what the bible about death how its a state of sleep and that they are conscious of nothing and they believe in the resurrection and to live on paradise earth forever after armageddon. I don't believe in that anymore. What I learned from other Christianity is that when we die we go to heaven or hell after when we die. I believe in heaven but I don't believe in the "hellfire" as a literal place but just darkness, chaos and just being lost without God that would be hell.


In the bible there are a lot of scriptures and website that claim that in the bible when we die in are in a sleep and pretty much are dead until when Christ comes back and we are resurrected.

However I believe that we are living souls when we die, our body goes back to dust and the spirit in us goes back to God. where God is in Heaven according to Ecclesiastes 12:7 We are the spirit and our bodies is the shell. I don't believe we fall asleep in death, I believe we go into heaven when we die.

However in a way the bible and me are on different pages, this is why i am pretty skeptical when it comes to the bible because I do see several scriptures when it comes to other topics literally contradict each other.

Some Im just so confused! What should I do? I never been dead before. I do believe in spirits I do believe that when some family members pass away or friends pass away they visit their loved ones time to time. I do believe that when someone has been murdered they are given a choice to stay or go with God that persons spirit sometimes still lingers to get justice and when their murder is solved they go away in peace with God. I know its crazy but I believe in that.


Should I pray about it to God?
Saul (who Romanized his name into Paul) wrote, in his "now holy canon" letters to Churches he was collecting money from, that death was like dreamless sleep until Resurrection (Most Pharisees, such as he, had been believing along the lines with Aristotelian non-spiritism, i.e. that the "soul" is the "form" of the body). This was in keeping with a lot of Jewish tradition of denying spiritualists/mediums.

However, Jesus (in the four gospels that were chosen to be kept) said that his God, "the God of Jacob, Abraham, Moses, etc" was a God of the Living and NOT the dead and so Jacob, Abraham, Moses, etc were still alive with God (up in heaven).

Of course, Paul wrote from his "once the most Pharisee of Pharisees" perspective and the Gospels were made for a more Greek audience (except one which was tailored more for Greek Jews).

This is why there are two perspectives on what happens right after death in the New Testament. In the Old Testament it is clear that Ashes to Ashes and Dust to Dust and Breath to Breath... Meaning that the Jewish version seemed to offer an Animal's Death until they incorporated concepts from Babylonia and Zoroastrianism about Cosmic Resurrection Judgment. Unless one assumes they always had them but didn't mention them in their earliest records.

The book of John also says that no one goes to heaven except the one who came from heaven and is currently in heaven, the Messiah. (meaning that Jesus's body disappeared because it proved Pharisee ideas about needing the body). The idea in John is also that there will be a Resurrection of all Dead later on, and the writer of John was more exposed to Pauline ideas..

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 02-24-2016 at 12:57 AM..
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Old 02-24-2016, 01:00 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
6,916 posts, read 4,303,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I agree.
If there is no resurrection, our faith is in vain.
According to Mike's way of thinking, If there is no resurrection, no problem; the dead are already with Christ, which is false.
How circular. So if there is no resurrection, then your faith in the resurrection is in vain. But Christians that don't believe in a resurrection would have no such problem venerating Jesus as God, their faith wouldn't be in vain: since they worship Jesus, not the resurrection.

Still, all of you do this for happy immortality, so just believing in happy immortality for yourself might be enough for your vanities, regardless of the details depending on the strength of your faith. Still, perhaps it is that mountains aren't moving, so those of little faith do need peer pressure and "evidences" such as written testimonials. So it might be in vain to just try to believe in happy immortality if the whole environment around you doesn't back you up somehow. Still, do Abraham, Jacob and Moses need a resurrection? I thought Jesus said they were alive because "God of Abraham" would mean God is a God death if they are dead.
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