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Old 02-24-2016, 08:02 AM
 
598 posts, read 240,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
How circular. So if there is no resurrection, then your faith in the resurrection is in vain. But Christians that don't believe in a resurrection would have no such problem venerating Jesus as God, their faith wouldn't be in vain: since they worship Jesus, not the resurrection.

Still, all of you do this for happy immortality, so just believing in happy immortality for yourself might be enough for your vanities, regardless of the details depending on the strength of your faith. Still, perhaps it is that mountains aren't moving, so those of little faith do need peer pressure and "evidences" such as written testimonials. So it might be in vain to just try to believe in happy immortality if the whole environment around you doesn't back you up somehow. Still, do Abraham, Jacob and Moses need a resurrection? I thought Jesus said they were alive because "God of Abraham" would mean God is a God death if they are dead.

Jesus is the resurrection

There are only two men and their descendants in all of the Bible, or for that matter in the world

One is Adam and the other is Jesus who is the "last Adam"

In Adam all men are born into death until the time through Jesus Christ they are born again into the resurrection that is not our resurrection as much as it is the resurrection of Jesus in us………… so Paul taught "in Christ all are made alive"

Every person dies physically at some point in time and when they do they go from "now is the day of salvation" unto now is the day of THEIR judgment for better or worse………… yet Paul says there are those who will not die but all will be changed. This last thought has a lot of different ways of being believed by different persons.
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:54 AM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,780,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Saul (who Romanized his name into Paul) wrote, in his "now holy canon" letters to Churches he was collecting money from, that death was like dreamless sleep until Resurrection (Most Pharisees, such as he, had been believing along the lines with Aristotelian non-spiritism, i.e. that the "soul" is the "form" of the body). This was in keeping with a lot of Jewish tradition of denying spiritualists/mediums.

However, Jesus (in the four gospels that were chosen to be kept) said that his God, "the God of Jacob, Abraham, Moses, etc" was a God of the Living and NOT the dead and so Jacob, Abraham, Moses, etc were still alive with God (up in heaven).

Of course, Paul wrote from his "once the most Pharisee of Pharisees" perspective and the Gospels were made for a more Greek audience (except one which was tailored more for Greek Jews).

This is why there are two perspectives on what happens right after death in the New Testament. In the Old Testament it is clear that Ashes to Ashes and Dust to Dust and Breath to Breath... Meaning that the Jewish version seemed to offer an Animal's Death until they incorporated concepts from Babylonia and Zoroastrianism about Cosmic Resurrection Judgment. Unless one assumes they always had them but didn't mention them in their earliest records.

The book of John also says that no one goes to heaven except the one who came from heaven and is currently in heaven, the Messiah. (meaning that Jesus's body disappeared because it proved Pharisee ideas about needing the body). The idea in John is also that there will be a Resurrection of all Dead later on, and the writer of John was more exposed to Pauline ideas..

"Romanized" his name into Paul? What are you talking about? Saul was His Hebrew language name, Paul was the Greek equivalent, and Greek was the "State" language of the day. Peace
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Old 02-24-2016, 10:05 AM
 
1,489 posts, read 612,141 times
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Luminous Truth. Is that an oxymoron?
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Old 02-24-2016, 10:15 AM
 
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Everyone seems to stumble at this because they have not made it according to the pattern shown Moses in the mount. The soul is the "us" part of the equation. Specifically, the mind, will, emotions and desires, the 4 parts of which are to be laid on the altar, tied down with cords of love that cannot be broken = make of yourselves a LIVING SACRIFICE and no greater love has any man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend.


The spirit, returns to the One that sent it. The soul, on the other hand, if it has not finished the course of dying daily above, remains in bondage at the death of the body, to whatever was not overcome while still IN the body. It stays there, until a time appointed by the Father, who sends His Son, to redeem the soul.


The RE-union of soul and spirit IS, the resurrection. The soul is as the feminine element, because it receives the SEED, the spirit is as the male element, because it plants the SEED. All mankind then, whether male or female after the flesh body, has A FEMININE soul aspect to their make-up. Natural creation witnesses this fact (as always, it's His witness) as all babies are female until a certain point in their development in the womb. There was, if you will, a "divorce" in the garden and that divorce IS death, for to separate the soul from the spirit, is death.


Paul's revelation, which He received as the only apostle that didn't know Yeshua in the flesh, was for THIS GENERATION to whom the end of the age has come, was that there would be a people that would experience a SUPERIOR resurrection, ie. that of one while still in the body = the soul and spirit caught up together in Christ, WITHOUT THE DEATH OF THE BODY = mortality swallowed up of immortality.


No one is "flying away", it is a natural metaphor for something that is spiritual in origin (we are spirit, soul and body), but will "ripple" out into the other two "courts", ie. soul and body. And THEN, and only then, will it be said, death where is thy sting? We do not overcome death the last enemy to be overcome by dying, we overcome it by NOT DYING. Behold, I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep (die) but....


And thus, you have antichrist spirits running rampant in this season, trying to diminish and degrade what Paul wrote, because the enemy of our soul's time is short to have dominion, the dominion he robbed Adam of in the garden, and he knows he is about to go under the feet of those that will stand upon Mt. Zion. Blessed are the feet....Peace

Last edited by Rbbi1; 02-24-2016 at 10:32 AM..
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Old 02-24-2016, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,275 posts, read 20,883,681 times
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Hi, Ty!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TySky View Post
Okay I was raised a jehovahs witness they are christians but a different type. When it comes to death they believe what the bible about death how its a state of sleep and that they are conscious of nothing and they believe in the resurrection and to live on paradise earth forever after armageddon. I don't believe in that anymore. What I learned from other Christianity is that when we die we go to heaven or hell after when we die. I believe in heaven but I don't believe in the "hellfire" as a literal place but just darkness, chaos and just being lost without God that would be hell.

In the bible there are a lot of scriptures and website that claim that in the bible when we die in are in a sleep and pretty much are dead until when Christ comes back and we are resurrected.
I have found, over the years, that people can "prove" pretty much any doctrine you want to name to be either true or false, and they can do so by using the Bible. I am aware of the verses in the Bible that the JWs use to support their belief in what happens after death. If you listen to a JW, their arguments can be quite compelling. Other perspectives can also be quite compelling, too, though, and can also be supported by scripture.

Quote:
However I believe that we are living souls when we die, our body goes back to dust and the spirit in us goes back to God. where God is in Heaven according to Ecclesiastes 12:7 We are the spirit and our bodies is the shell. I don't believe we fall asleep in death, I believe we go into heaven when we die.
My personal belief is that you are closer to being right than you are to being wrong, but that your understanding still isn't quite correct. I believe, as you do, that when a physical body is infused with spirit, it becomes a living soul, and that it is only the physical body that "dies." The spirit continues to exist as a fully cognizant entity, independently of the physical body, which lies in the earth in an apparent state of sleep.

I don't believe that the spirit immediately goes to Heaven, though, but to a sort of an intermediate realm where it awaits the resurrection. No, this is not Purgatory (and I don't believe in purgatory). It's simply the place where the spirits of all mankind exist until Christ returns to begin His millennial reign. At that time, each of us will be resurrected, and will have a newly perfected and immortal body, like the body Jesus has when He was resurrected and ascended into Heaven. That is when we will actually join God in Heaven.

After all, what does the word "resurrection" mean? It is the return to life of something that was dead. If the spirit never died, the spirit cannot be resurrected. Only the body can, and this is what happens at the resurrection. The spirit that inhabited your body during your mortality will give your body new life and your body will be made completely new and perfect, never to die again.

Quote:
However in a way the bible and me are on different pages, this is why i am pretty skeptical when it comes to the bible because I do see several scriptures when it comes to other topics literally contradict each other.
Well, as I said before, that's kind of the way it seems to work.

Quote:
Some Im just so confused! What should I do? I never been dead before. I do believe in spirits I do believe that when some family members pass away or friends pass away they visit their loved ones time to time. I do believe that when someone has been murdered they are given a choice to stay or go with God that persons spirit sometimes still lingers to get justice and when their murder is solved they go away in peace with God. I know its crazy but I believe in that.
Have you ever asked yourself what the fate will be for the millions of people who died without having ever even heard of Jesus Christ? I mean there literally are... well, not just millions, but billions. I believe that they too will have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ taught in the spirit realm by believers who are still spreading the gospel. God will not judge anyone who has not had the opportunity to hear and accept Jesus Christ's gospel, and this is something that's going to happen for a great many people during the interval between their death and their resurrection. I realize this must be an entirely new concept to you, but if you'd like to explore it further, I'd be happy to talk to you about it.

Quote:
Should I pray about it to God?
By all means. That's the only way you're ever going to be able to get the answer you're looking for.
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Old 02-24-2016, 11:13 AM
 
1,489 posts, read 612,141 times
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@Rbbi1: Amen!, and a whole chorus of Amens!

That is the most anointed post written on CD today.
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Old 02-24-2016, 02:36 PM
 
4,573 posts, read 2,267,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Without death there would be massive overpopulation. Death is not a punishment.
Please take into consideration Genesis 1:28 that people are to fill the earth, or populate the earth, Not overfill or overpopulate earth. So, mankind was only to populate earth until earth was full or populated.

Jesus will being an end to ' enemy death ' see 1st Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
So, Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over earth will begin before earth can be overpopulated.
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Old 02-24-2016, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,918 posts, read 4,928,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Please take into consideration Genesis 1:28 that people are to fill the earth, or populate the earth, Not overfill or overpopulate earth. So, mankind was only to populate earth until earth was full or populated.
Oh I see. So after humans filled the earth, we were supposed to stop having babies? Is that the idea?
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:01 PM
 
598 posts, read 240,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
Everyone seems to stumble at this because they have not made it according to the pattern shown Moses in the mount. The soul is the "us" part of the equation. Specifically, the mind, will, emotions and desires, the 4 parts of which are to be laid on the altar, tied down with cords of love that cannot be broken = make of yourselves a LIVING SACRIFICE and no greater love has any man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend.


The spirit, returns to the One that sent it. The soul, on the other hand, if it has not finished the course of dying daily above, remains in bondage at the death of the body, to whatever was not overcome while still IN the body. It stays there, until a time appointed by the Father, who sends His Son, to redeem the soul.


The RE-union of soul and spirit IS, the resurrection. The soul is as the feminine element, because it receives the SEED, the spirit is as the male element, because it plants the SEED. All mankind then, whether male or female after the flesh body, has A FEMININE soul aspect to their make-up. Natural creation witnesses this fact (as always, it's His witness) as all babies are female until a certain point in their development in the womb. There was, if you will, a "divorce" in the garden and that divorce IS death, for to separate the soul from the spirit, is death.


Paul's revelation, which He received as the only apostle that didn't know Yeshua in the flesh, was for THIS GENERATION to whom the end of the age has come, was that there would be a people that would experience a SUPERIOR resurrection, ie. that of one while still in the body = the soul and spirit caught up together in Christ, WITHOUT THE DEATH OF THE BODY = mortality swallowed up of immortality.


No one is "flying away", it is a natural metaphor for something that is spiritual in origin (we are spirit, soul and body), but will "ripple" out into the other two "courts", ie. soul and body. And THEN, and only then, will it be said, death where is thy sting? We do not overcome death the last enemy to be overcome by dying, we overcome it by NOT DYING. Behold, I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep (die) but....


And thus, you have antichrist spirits running rampant in this season, trying to diminish and degrade what Paul wrote, because the enemy of our soul's time is short to have dominion, the dominion he robbed Adam of in the garden, and he knows he is about to go under the feet of those that will stand upon Mt. Zion. Blessed are the feet....Peace
This ^^^

If I could be given anything to see that will allow me to rest easy this evening, is what is posted above that proves to me the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is never far away, especially for those here on CD Christian forum

While it is sthe day of salvation, and while there is still time, do not harden your necks anymore than they already are

Please
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:28 PM
 
598 posts, read 240,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Hi, Ty!

I have found, over the years, that people can "prove" pretty much any doctrine you want to name to be either true or false, and they can do so by using the Bible. I am aware of the verses in the Bible that the JWs use to support their belief in what happens after death. If you listen to a JW, their arguments can be quite compelling. Other perspectives can also be quite compelling, too, though, and can also be supported by scripture.
This would never be spoken by someone who has learned how to "lawfully" discern the truth of the scriptures

As soon as the way Paul studied, taught and wrote in the manner that resulted in him being called a heretic is known by students of the scriptures today, any doctrine can be proven to either have its foundation in the truth, or in the methods and traditions of man?

The content of the second chapter of the free E-book "Modern Day Prophet" that has not been taught in any Christian gathering since the death of the last apostle, introduces the reader for how to prove true or false any presentation of any doctrine, whether it be of man or God, according to the commandments of God

It is the teaching behind why Jesus said "those who learn and teach the truth of the law will be called great in the Kingdom of God

There is nothing to learning a list of do's and and do not do's no matter who the author is………… but if you believe as Paul and Jesus have said there are mysteries and truths hidden in the Word of God, this is where the keys to unlocking those mysteries of the foundation of truth can be found.

You can PM me for a free e-book copy

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

2 Timothy 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
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