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Old 03-24-2016, 03:02 PM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,351,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post

But between you, Warden, the mightyqueen - and the liberal descriptor used - everything good seems to go in the liberal box.

I guess the thing to me is when Jesus is put in the box. He is beyond any box - liberal, conservative, whatever.
Hmmm.....I'll try and think about what the far-right conservatives have done that I would put in the "good" box.

FYI...I don't put Jesus in any box.

 
Old 03-24-2016, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
10,080 posts, read 4,161,649 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
People can justify anything using almost any source.
Yep and I would bet your source is your brainwashing dishonest disgusting god/religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
The Bible denounces any mistreatment and abuse of people. That's where people went wrong in America past.
I call BS. Odd how christians don't even know much about the book they blindly follow.

Exodus 11:
4 So Moses said, "This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. 6 There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt-worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. 7 But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any man or animal.' Then you will know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.
Exodus 12:
So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had commanded through Moses and Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.
Deuteronomy 7:
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations-the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

Need more? Well here you go!


Numbers 31

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them.
...
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

1 Samuel 15:


3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
...
7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs, everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10
Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions."

How about some more?

Leviticus 30:13: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Deuteronomy 21: "18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

I've got more for you if you need.
Now what were you just saying about the bible denouncing any mistreatment and abuse of people?

Last edited by Matadora; 03-24-2016 at 07:12 PM..
 
Old 03-24-2016, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
10,080 posts, read 4,161,649 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
True, but it was also Christians who put a stop to it. It was overturned and laws can be overturned again.
No it started with many folks that were not religious. Charles Darwin being one of them. You can thank Science and the Civil War for the end of slavery here in the US.

When Christopher Columbus and the Spanish Conquistadores engaged in the conquest of the Americas, they did do so under the direction of the Pope, and their slaughter and subjugation of all natives was justified through Christian theology. When Spanish conquerors came into contact with new groups of people they were required to read an article to them, in Spanish, called the Requerimiento. The Requerimiento stated that all men were descended from Adam and Eve, that the Catholic Church had been granted the right by God to rule all people, and that there was no way to deny the authority of the Pope. Those who resisted would be slaughtered or enslaved.

You can easily Google the Requerimiento and read it for yourself.

Show me your credible links that put christians solely in charge of putting a stop to it.
 
Old 03-24-2016, 08:22 PM
Status: "Even better than okay" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
51,318 posts, read 50,576,723 times
Reputation: 60245
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Hmmm.....I'll try and think about what the far-right conservatives have done that I would put in the "good" box.

FYI...I don't put Jesus in any box.
Neither do I.

I see the difference--broadly--as one being inclusive and the other exclusive.
 
Old 03-24-2016, 08:27 PM
Status: "Even better than okay" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
51,318 posts, read 50,576,723 times
Reputation: 60245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
No it started with many folks that were not religious. Charles Darwin being one of them. You can thank Science and the Civil War for the end of slavery here in the US.

When Christopher Columbus and the Spanish Conquistadores engaged in the conquest of the Americas, they did do so under the direction of the Pope, and their slaughter and subjugation of all natives was justified through Christian theology. When Spanish conquerors came into contact with new groups of people they were required to read an article to them, in Spanish, called the Requerimiento. The Requerimiento stated that all men were descended from Adam and Eve, that the Catholic Church had been granted the right by God to rule all people, and that there was no way to deny the authority of the Pope. Those who resisted would be slaughtered or enslaved.

You can easily Google the Requerimiento and read it for yourself.

Show me your credible links that put christians solely in charge of putting a stop to it.
And they read it in Spanish even if the natives didn't understand Spanish. Absolutely true.

But before the Civil War, Christians were split over slavery. There is a historic church in NJ whose congregation was so divided over slavery that the minister quit because of the fighting.

ETA: I went looking for the above example of Old Paramus Reformed Church, and it turns out there was more than one when the minister quit and another whose parish fired him for his anti-slavery views.

http://www.njchurchscape.com/Index-June05.html
 
Old 03-24-2016, 08:44 PM
Status: "Amused by BF/V." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
23,350 posts, read 12,079,766 times
Reputation: 10651
Many end terminals of the underground railroad were north of the 49th. Black communities played a large part in developing Ontario and other regions of Canada.
 
Old 03-24-2016, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
10,080 posts, read 4,161,649 times
Reputation: 6361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
But before the Civil War, Christians were split over slavery.
Yes this is much more acceptable than someone making the claim that it was the christians who were solely responsible for ending slavery. That's BS to the MAX!
 
Old 03-25-2016, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,595 posts, read 5,120,460 times
Reputation: 3917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Southern ministers and slave owners quoted from the bible and noted that not only does the Bible not condemn slavery, it specifies standards by which slaves are to be treated. The Bible treats slavery as if it were a natural state of the human condition.

27f. The Southern Argument for Slavery
"Defenders of slavery noted that in the Bible, Abraham had slaves. They point to the Ten Commandments, noting that "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, ... nor his manservant, nor his maidservant." In the New Testament, Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master, and, although slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, Jesus never spoke out against it." The Southern Argument for Slavery [ushistory.org]

Southern Justification of Slavery
"With regard to the assertion that slavery is against the spirit of Christianity, we are ready to admit the general assertion, but deny most positively that there is anything in the Old or New Testament which would go to show that slavery, when once introduced, ought at all events to be abrogated, or that the master commits any offense in holding slaves. The children of Israel themselves were slaveholders and were not condemned for it. All the patriarchs themselves were slaveholders; Abraham had more than three hundred, Isaac had a "great store" of them; and even the patient and meek Job himself had "a very great household." When the children of Israel conquered the land of Canaan, they made one whole tribe "hewers of wood and drawers of water," and they were at that very time under the special guidance of Jehovah; they were permitted expressly to purchase slaves of the heathen and keep them as an inheritance for their posterity; and even the children of Israel might be enslaved for six years."
Southern Justification of Slavery


The Religious Defense of American Slavery Before 1830

"The foundation upon which the slaveholding ethic and the proslavery argument was built was the scriptural defense of slavery."

"Nearly every proslavery pamphlet, or article, or speaker made at least some reference to a biblical sanction of slavery. The reason for such a position should be clear. From the very beginning much of the attack upon slaveholding had always been upon moral grounds. Opponents of slavery claimed that it was a sin to hold slaves; the principle of right and wrong involved with slavery became fundamental to the argument. The South's use of the Bible to defend slavery and the master-slave relationship was thus an attempt to erect a moral defense of slavery. The emphasis from proslavery defenders was always upon a literal reading of the Bible which represented the mind and will of God himself. Slaveholding was not only justified but also moral because it was recognized as such in Holy Scripture. Slavery's defenders relied on this literal reading as a response to the emphasis upon the "principles of Christianity" used by those opposed to slavery. Proslavery advocates continually contrasted the Tightness of their position, based on such a literal biblical reading, to the open-ended interpretive religion implied by those opposed to slavery. In 1820, for example, in the midst of the debates over Missouri statehood, the Richmond Enquirer went to elaborate lengths in a long editorial to emphasize the literal truth of the Bible and its sanction of slavery. After a long section giving various scriptural sanctions, the article concluded by giving "a plain concise statement of certain propositions that we presume few faithful believers will controvert." There were five propositions: I That the volume of sacred writings commonly called the bible, comprehending the old and new Testaments, contains the unerring decisions of the word of God." http://www.kingscollege.net/gbrodie/...ore%201830.pdf
My grandfather was one who used the Bible to justify racial discrimination. BUT, there are two sides to the story, and you have posted only one. For the sake of fairness and clarity, let's look at the other:

Quote:
While there were obviously believers who read the Bible and came to the conclusion God supported slavery, there were also many others who came to the opposite conclusion. In the early years in our country, the Church of the Brethren (German Baptist Brethren) denounced slavery and would not allow any of their members to own slaves. Ministers who tried to defend slavery from the Bible were quickly excommunicated. During this same early period of time, Quakers and Mennonites also condemned the practice of slavery. Many of the founding fathers believed slavery was wrong and they formed their opinions based on their Christian upbringing:

Noah Webster (the Father of American education) “Justice and humanity require it (the end of slavery) – Christianity commands it. Let every benevolent… pray for the glorious period when the last slave who fights for freedom shall be restored to the possession of that inestimable right.”

Benjamin Rush (a Signer of the Declaration of Independence) Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity… It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men.”
Why Did Some Historic Christians Promote Slavery While Others Condemned It? | Cold Case Christianity

It is always in the "literal" reading of Scripture where some so-called believers go wrong--in every generation, and in situation after situation, whether it is slavery, women's rights, or now, gay marriage or the "right" to refuse gay people commercial services. In all cases those claiming the Bible supports oppression were---literalists--and frequently even literalism is a stretch.

One part of Christianity has always been at war with the rest of the world. The second part has mostly been at war with the first group of Christians over these very issues. Please note, the second, and smaller, group of Christians has always had an uphill fight in standing up for oppressed people.

Of course, the current Republican Party (which I think doesn't give a tinker's dam about what any Christian thinks) has done an excellent job at inflaming the Christians of part one--but really haven't, even when they controlled both House and Senate along with the Presidency, done a single thing to reverse actions supported by the second group of Christians. But it gets them votes, so look for more oil on the fire, and more stupid christians in group one who think the lying lips of politicians are going to establish theocracy for them. They get what they themselves give---lip service to God.

The main stream Republicans are trying to sully Trump by claiming he supports gay marriage. I can't stand Trump personally, but I believe like he does on this issue---there are more important issues--and that's where we part ways.
 
Old 03-25-2016, 06:15 AM
 
Location: USA
3,032 posts, read 1,053,649 times
Reputation: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
My grandfather was one who used the Bible to justify racial discrimination. BUT, there are two sides to the story, and you have posted only one. For the sake of fairness and clarity, let's look at the other:

Why Did Some Historic Christians Promote Slavery While Others Condemned It? | Cold Case Christianity

It is always in the "literal" reading of Scripture where some so-called believers go wrong--in every generation, and in situation after situation, whether it is slavery, women's rights, or now, gay marriage or the "right" to refuse gay people commercial services. In all cases those claiming the Bible supports oppression were---literalists--and frequently even literalism is a stretch.

One part of Christianity has always been at war with the rest of the world. The second part has mostly been at war with the first group of Christians over these very issues. Please note, the second, and smaller, group of Christians has always had an uphill fight in standing up for oppressed people.

Of course, the current Republican Party (which I think doesn't give a tinker's dam about what any Christian thinks) has done an excellent job at inflaming the Christians of part one--but really haven't, even when they controlled both House and Senate along with the Presidency, done a single thing to reverse actions supported by the second group of Christians. But it gets them votes, so look for more oil on the fire, and more stupid christians in group one who think the lying lips of politicians are going to establish theocracy for them. They get what they themselves give---lip service to God.

The main stream Republicans are trying to sully Trump by claiming he supports gay marriage. I can't stand Trump personally, but I believe like he does on this issue---there are more important issues--and that's where we part ways.
My post was directed at janelle144 who contended that Christians were responsible for the ending of slavery in the U.S. And of course as we can see manifest on so many other issues, Christians are perfectly capable of taking entirely opposing positions and declaring them to be unquestionably valid according to scripture.
 
Old 03-25-2016, 02:26 PM
Status: "Even better than okay" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
51,318 posts, read 50,576,723 times
Reputation: 60245
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
Many end terminals of the underground railroad were north of the 49th. Black communities played a large part in developing Ontario and other regions of Canada.
Yes, I know that, and I always wondered if there are black communities in Canada who carry family stories and memories of fleeing north from slavery.
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