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View Poll Results: Who gets your loyality first?
Almighty God 22 81.48%
Your Country 5 18.52%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-04-2016, 10:14 PM
Status: "Amused by BF." (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
23,308 posts, read 12,067,777 times
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My family.

My friends.

My neighbours.

My world.
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Old 03-05-2016, 05:24 AM
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
20,568 posts, read 22,728,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Has nothing to do with whose side God is on. We must protect our homeland.
What did Jesus say about the other cheek? Isn't our "homeland" in heaven??
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Old 03-05-2016, 06:10 AM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
15,147 posts, read 8,232,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
What did Jesus say about the other cheek? Isn't our "homeland" in heaven??
Jesus was referring to one on one relationships. We can't let bad guys take over our country and harm our citizens. I bet if a bad guy threatened you, your family and your home, you'd call the cops.
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Old 03-05-2016, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
4,199 posts, read 2,026,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
When nations war against each other, should a true Christian join the fight in a war? If they do, then how will they explain to Jesus that they killed one of his followers? While on the Earth, Jesus could've amassed an army and fought the Romans for Israel but he didn't. Why not? How far should a person go in following Jesus Christ footsteps?
Of course! If you die for others, how Christlike! I also believe God goes first in ALL things, even loyalty. We all should be loyal to our nation.
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Old 03-05-2016, 03:29 PM
 
17,916 posts, read 9,849,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Jesus was referring to one on one relationships. We can't let bad guys take over our country and harm our citizens. I bet if a bad guy threatened you, your family and your home, you'd call the cops.
The job of the police is to keep public order, and if they respond to my call, it's only to keep public order, not because they have an obligation to protect me. US courts have already ruled precisely that: The police exist for the benefit of the social order, not for the benefit of individuals.

I don't know, actually, if you consider yourself a Christian or not, so when you say "our country and harm its citizens" I have no real idea what you actually have in mind.

I am a citizen of Heaven (Philippians 3). When I was overseas, I met some of my fellow citizens of Heaven in other countries. Here is how I knew we were citizens of the same nation: We had the same culture. I'm not talking about superficial things like language and food. I'm talking about the deep things: Love, hate, honor, justice. His morality was the Sermon on the Mount, that's how people lived in his home nation--and so it was in mine. We saw eye-to-eye right down the line on the important stuff of life.

Most importantly: What king did we follow, who did we owe our first loyalty to? It was clear to us that if we declared ourselves in service to the same king, then we were of the same nation.

Then I came back to the US and had a conversation with someone who spoke the same language, ate the same foods, dressed in the same way, had the same color skin. But his ideas about love, hate, honor, and justice were totally at odds with mine. More importantly: He owed his first loyalty to someone else. He did not follow the same king I followed.

This guy was not my fellow countryman--that guy on the other side of the planet was.

So I look around myself at American culture with they eyes of an alien (1 Peter 1), a traveler and a temporary resident (1 Peter 2), the same as I did when I was in other countries of this world. None of them is my home culture, their ways are all alien to me, and my ways are alien to them (1 Peter 4).

I have people in the OT like Joseph, Daniel, Ezra, Mordecai, and Nehemiah. Even though they rose to exalted levels in the governments of foreign countries, they never forgot they were aliens there--they never "went native." Ever Joseph levied on his children, "When you go back to our own country, don't leave my body here--take my body with you." They never said, "my country" and meant those foreign nations, even as they rendered good service to those foreign kings.

Notice that Daniel passed in service from one invader to another without losing his job--that's because he neither identified with the old king nor was even identifiable with the old king. He was never Babylonian or Persian, but was always identified as a Jew, a stranger in a strange land.

I have people in the OT like Joseph, Daniel, Ezra, Mordecai, and Nehemiah. Even though they rose to exalted levels in the governments of foreign countries, they never forgot they were aliens there--they never "went native." Ever Joseph levied on his children, "When you go back to our own country, don't leave my body here--take my body with you." They never said, "my country" and meant those foreign nations, even as they rendered good service to those foreign kings.

So when someone says, "Our culture is going down the drain" or "our nation is in peril," if he's not talking about Heaven, I know he's not talking about my home, so I'm not worried. I'm not from here, I'm just assigned here for now.

I already know that American culture--like every other culture in the world--is the Titanic with an irreparable rent in its side. This ship is going down, it can't be saved. And it's doom didn't just start recently, it was doomed from its beginning.

So my job as a citizen of Heaven is to be an ambassador for Christ (2 Corinthians 5). The apostle Paul's ambassadorial mission was not to fix the Roman Empire, and my ambassadorial mission is not to fix America. My mission is to display the morality of a citizen of Heaven (Matthew 5-7), to speak of the goodness of being a citizen of Heaven, and to provide asylum to those who wish to defect from their original native countries to the Kingdom of Heaven.

When I get deeply into 1 Peter--and I urge all Christians to do so--I see that its entire purpose is as a "field manual" to ambassadors of Heaven in our various assignments in these worldly nations. The first part of 1 Peter defines us, shows the distinction between us and the world, why we are not part of the world, and that we ourselves form a distinct and real nation even though we are physically dispersed.

1 Peter tells us in great detail how we as aliens are supposed to relate to the natives of this world on a personal basis: How citizens of Heaven relate to earthly governments; how citizens of Heaven relate to earthly supervisors; how citizens of Heaven relate to earthly spouses.

1 Peter points out that we are essentially aliens in the world, that their ways are not our ways, and we will never find comfort in being true to our own national culture and morality...nor should we.
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Old 03-05-2016, 04:18 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
15,147 posts, read 8,232,056 times
Reputation: 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The job of the police is to keep public order, and if they respond to my call, it's only to keep public order, not because they have an obligation to protect me. US courts have already ruled precisely that: The police exist for the benefit of the social order, not for the benefit of individuals.

I don't know, actually, if you consider yourself a Christian or not, so when you say "our country and harm its citizens" I have no real idea what you actually have in mind.

I am a citizen of Heaven (Philippians 3). When I was overseas, I met some of my fellow citizens of Heaven in other countries. Here is how I knew we were citizens of the same nation: We had the same culture. I'm not talking about superficial things like language and food. I'm talking about the deep things: Love, hate, honor, justice. His morality was the Sermon on the Mount, that's how people lived in his home nation--and so it was in mine. We saw eye-to-eye right down the line on the important stuff of life.

Most importantly: What king did we follow, who did we owe our first loyalty to? It was clear to us that if we declared ourselves in service to the same king, then we were of the same nation.

Then I came back to the US and had a conversation with someone who spoke the same language, ate the same foods, dressed in the same way, had the same color skin. But his ideas about love, hate, honor, and justice were totally at odds with mine. More importantly: He owed his first loyalty to someone else. He did not follow the same king I followed.

This guy was not my fellow countryman--that guy on the other side of the planet was.

So I look around myself at American culture with they eyes of an alien (1 Peter 1), a traveler and a temporary resident (1 Peter 2), the same as I did when I was in other countries of this world. None of them is my home culture, their ways are all alien to me, and my ways are alien to them (1 Peter 4).

I have people in the OT like Joseph, Daniel, Ezra, Mordecai, and Nehemiah. Even though they rose to exalted levels in the governments of foreign countries, they never forgot they were aliens there--they never "went native." Ever Joseph levied on his children, "When you go back to our own country, don't leave my body here--take my body with you." They never said, "my country" and meant those foreign nations, even as they rendered good service to those foreign kings.

Notice that Daniel passed in service from one invader to another without losing his job--that's because he neither identified with the old king nor was even identifiable with the old king. He was never Babylonian or Persian, but was always identified as a Jew, a stranger in a strange land.

I have people in the OT like Joseph, Daniel, Ezra, Mordecai, and Nehemiah. Even though they rose to exalted levels in the governments of foreign countries, they never forgot they were aliens there--they never "went native." Ever Joseph levied on his children, "When you go back to our own country, don't leave my body here--take my body with you." They never said, "my country" and meant those foreign nations, even as they rendered good service to those foreign kings.

So when someone says, "Our culture is going down the drain" or "our nation is in peril," if he's not talking about Heaven, I know he's not talking about my home, so I'm not worried. I'm not from here, I'm just assigned here for now.

I already know that American culture--like every other culture in the world--is the Titanic with an irreparable rent in its side. This ship is going down, it can't be saved. And it's doom didn't just start recently, it was doomed from its beginning.

So my job as a citizen of Heaven is to be an ambassador for Christ (2 Corinthians 5). The apostle Paul's ambassadorial mission was not to fix the Roman Empire, and my ambassadorial mission is not to fix America. My mission is to display the morality of a citizen of Heaven (Matthew 5-7), to speak of the goodness of being a citizen of Heaven, and to provide asylum to those who wish to defect from their original native countries to the Kingdom of Heaven.

When I get deeply into 1 Peter--and I urge all Christians to do so--I see that its entire purpose is as a "field manual" to ambassadors of Heaven in our various assignments in these worldly nations. The first part of 1 Peter defines us, shows the distinction between us and the world, why we are not part of the world, and that we ourselves form a distinct and real nation even though we are physically dispersed.

1 Peter tells us in great detail how we as aliens are supposed to relate to the natives of this world on a personal basis: How citizens of Heaven relate to earthly governments; how citizens of Heaven relate to earthly supervisors; how citizens of Heaven relate to earthly spouses.

1 Peter points out that we are essentially aliens in the world, that their ways are not our ways, and we will never find comfort in being true to our own national culture and morality...nor should we.
I bet if a bad guy threatened you, your family or your home, you would

1) Call the cops

or

2) Pull out your personal firearm.
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Old 03-05-2016, 05:20 PM
 
17,916 posts, read 9,849,196 times
Reputation: 17400
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I bet if a bad guy threatened you, your family or your home, you would

1) Call the cops

or

2) Pull out your personal firearm.
My, is that all you had to say? Merely a repeat of what you said before?

Either one of those would be a mission defeat (and I'm not saying for a moment that I can't be defeated, not saying that at all).

I think Nathaniel Saint captured it perfectly. He was involved in a Christian mission to a the Huaorani tribe in Ecuador. These were people known to be so violent to each other and so murderously hostile to outsiders that they were gradually extinguishing their own tribe and had had very little contact with the outside world. The Ecuadorian government was frightened of them. But Nate Saint felt a call to take the gospel of Christ to them.

The issue of self-defense from such violent people was certainly a matter of discussion. In fact, they had a gun with them. But Saint had come to the conclusion, stated concisely, "I'm prepared to meet my maker; they are not."

In other words, Nate Saint understood this was just an assignment, purely temporary, and he could be called back home to Heaven at any time...and that would be a good thing. He was fully prepared to stand before Jesus.

But the Huaorani were not. They needed an opportunity to hear the gospel, and opportunity to repent and to know Jesus the way Nate Saint did. They weren't ready, and Saint decided he would not be the one to take that opportunity from them.

And that's the way it was when after they'd dealt successfully with the Huaorani for a while, something suddenly went horribly wrong. They were attacked for no reason, and Saint refused to use his weapon, allowing himself to be speared through the chest and killed.

Some time later, Nate Saint's own wife and son launched a new attempt to take the gospel to the Huaorani. They were successful. In fact, the very man who killed Nate Saint accepted Jesus and later became a close friend of Saint's son. He had to have realized the chance that the man he killed had given him.

Nate Saint had succeeded.
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:09 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,341 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
My, is that all you had to say? Merely a repeat of what you said before?

Either one of those would be a mission defeat (and I'm not saying for a moment that I can't be defeated, not saying that at all).

I think Nathaniel Saint captured it perfectly. He was involved in a Christian mission to a the Huaorani tribe in Ecuador. These were people known to be so violent to each other and so murderously hostile to outsiders that they were gradually extinguishing their own tribe and had had very little contact with the outside world. The Ecuadorian government was frightened of them. But Nate Saint felt a call to take the gospel of Christ to them.

The issue of self-defense from such violent people was certainly a matter of discussion. In fact, they had a gun with them. But Saint had come to the conclusion, stated concisely, "I'm prepared to meet my maker; they are not."

In other words, Nate Saint understood this was just an assignment, purely temporary, and he could be called back home to Heaven at any time...and that would be a good thing. He was fully prepared to stand before Jesus.

But the Huaorani were not. They needed an opportunity to hear the gospel, and opportunity to repent and to know Jesus the way Nate Saint did. They weren't ready, and Saint decided he would not be the one to take that opportunity from them.

And that's the way it was when after they'd dealt successfully with the Huaorani for a while, something suddenly went horribly wrong. They were attacked for no reason, and Saint refused to use his weapon, allowing himself to be speared through the chest and killed.

Some time later, Nate Saint's own wife and son launched a new attempt to take the gospel to the Huaorani. They were successful. In fact, the very man who killed Nate Saint accepted Jesus and later became a close friend of Saint's son. He had to have realized the chance that the man he killed had given him.

Nate Saint had succeeded.
As being a person that is in a religion that is completely centered around declaring the Good News of Jesus Christ, I hear of these accounts all the time. Yet the Good News is not halted. It continues to move forward. We might die but the message doesn't. For a person give their life for that of true peace, there is no higher courage. That displays the type of courage Jesus showed in his last days on Earth.

Those who say, 'call the police or grab your gun' if your home is being invaded is not necessarily wrong. Yet to call your home a 3.7 million square mile chunk of land your home is over reaching. At any rate those that rely more on a gun than they do God to protect them has put their faith in the wrong thing. There is no guarantee that a gun will save your life. A person can have a gun or the police for protection and still die. Yet Acts 24:15 promises that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous to a what Psalms 37:10,11 says will be a world of peace and the wicked are no more. A gun will not be performing that act. So, we have to ask ourselves, where does our faith stand? Force or the kindness Jesus asked us to display.
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:21 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,341 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Ashbeck View Post
Of course! If you die for others, how Christlike! I also believe God goes first in ALL things, even loyalty. We all should be loyal to our nation.
“No one can slave for two masters" Matthew 6:24

It's not about the dying for others but killing for others. Jesus died for all, killed no one and still was able to 'conquer the world'. If a person wishes to be part of God's 'nation' then they will act like the model citizen He sent for us.
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Old 03-08-2016, 02:45 PM
 
782 posts, read 296,042 times
Reputation: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
When nations war against each other, should a true Christian join the fight in a war? If they do, then how will they explain to Jesus that they killed one of his followers? While on the Earth, Jesus could've amassed an army and fought the Romans for Israel but he didn't. Why not? How far should a person go in following Jesus Christ footsteps?
There are two types of war - defensive and aggressive.

The first type is fought to preserve one's home, family, and community. The second type is fought to steal the property of another nation, to gain some sort of national advantage, or simply to enlarge the bank accounts of leadership.

To be blunt about it, the United States is currently engaged in the second type of warfare - aggressive. We are fighting endless wars across the globe to enhance the financial positions of large corporations - the 'military industrial complex' as President Eisenhower called it. Propaganda feeds the lie that America does this as a form of self-defense, but unfortunately that is the lie that every aggressor empire has told its citizens since the beginning of time. Some things never change. Americans generally believe the lie, including but not limited to Christians of every denomination.

But what should a disciple of Christ do? Follow Jesus' example of course.

Jesus NEVER pledged His allegiance to the Roman Empire.
Jesus NEVER supported Roman troops (or Jewish rebels either).
Jesus NEVER saluted a political banner or gave affirmation to any political entity.

Jesus DID pay the taxes that were appropriately due.
Jesus DID obey the law of the land both Jewish and Roman.
Jesus DID follow His conscience, which ultimately got him arrested and killed.

What should the disciple of Christ do?

The true Christian should NOT pledge his allegiance to the flag or to the fascist police state for which it stands.
(The pledge of allegiance was not used for most of American history. It was only implemented during the 1930's, the period of time when fascist leaders first attempted to overthrow the American government.(1) It is no coincidence that the first salute to the American flag was identical to the straight arm German salute also stipulated by the National Socialist German Worker's Party in Europe.)

The true Christian should NOT support the troops which are in fact the military extension of corrupt political policy in America.

The true Christian should NOT give affirmation or support to political organizations that promote fascist policy - in 2016 that means Republicans and Democrats, two heads of the same snake.

The true Christian should pay all appropriate taxes and obey the law of the land wherever such laws do not conflict with his or her conscience regarding how they live their lives before God (usually defined by the 10 commandments).(2)

The fact that American Christians are brainwashed into accepting politically correct policies and declarations instead of those of the Bible should tell the dispassionate reader a lot about our nation. It has wholly corrupted itself and has defied the throne of heaven.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA, HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.
- Shanghai curse August 1937


and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(1) Google the life and times of General Smedley D. Butler
(2) Some municipalities have declared the 10 commandments to be illegal, thus making it ok for politicians to dip their fingers into the public funds. When God's law is usurped, honesty becomes an historic footnote for a nation.

Last edited by Choir Loft; 03-08-2016 at 02:54 PM..
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