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View Poll Results: Who gets your loyality first?
Almighty God 22 81.48%
Your Country 5 18.52%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-29-2016, 02:05 PM
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
20,597 posts, read 22,756,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
Are you looking for a discussion or fighting ???
Like Jesus said---TAKE THAT SWORD AND USE IT! Not. He never meant that in a PHYSICAL way.


How can people take a metaphor and interpret it to be a command and then take a command and interpret it as a metaphor?

Those who are secure in their understanding have nothing to fear from those who have questions
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Old 02-29-2016, 02:46 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
15,207 posts, read 8,247,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post

Those who are secure in their understanding have nothing to fear from those who have questions.
There's something we can agree on.
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Old 02-29-2016, 02:57 PM
 
17,992 posts, read 9,875,337 times
Reputation: 17481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Until Jesus returns there will be wars and rumors of wars, and nations must be militarily prepared to defend themselves. And believers have a dual citizenship. The believer has a citizenship in heaven, but he is also a citizen of the country in which he lives. As such, he has certain obligations to his country. One being an obligation to defend his country against aggressors..
I doubt that Paul would not have advised anyone to join the Roman army to defend Rome against the Persians, for he taught "do not make yourself a slave of any man." (1 Corinthians 7).


The second century Christians--people who had actually met some of the apostles--eschewed military service. Peter certainly speaks of Christians as being only "aliens," "pilgrims and sojourners"--and definitely not natives--of these earthly nations, possessing our own Heavenly culture that the natives of these nations find "strange."


Even though Paul acknowledged that Rome considered him a citizen, the "obligations" he enumerated were precisely the same that military Status of Forces Agreements require of soldiers stationed overseas. When I was stationed overseas, the SOFA required three things of me with regard to the host country:


1. Obey their laws
2. If living off-base, pay whatever taxes they levied upon me
3. Honor their officials.


This did not confuse us--we were still totally aware we were not citizens of that country. We obeyed their laws, paid their taxes, and honored their officials only because our own commander required it.


In Romans 13, Paul enumerates exactly the same thing, and it no more means Christians are "dual citizens," than it does for soldiers stationed overseas.


As we were soldiers stationed overseas, Christians are on this earth as people with a mission, and that mission is not supported by any earthly nation. In fact, every earthly nation is necessarily hostile to the mission of Christ--as Christ said so. If any Christian has found a comfortable home in any earthly nation...that's not a Christian who is about the mission of Christ.
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:17 PM
 
20,309 posts, read 15,665,676 times
Reputation: 7433
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
"These things I command you, that you love one another. If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you.If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you."-John 15:17-19

Is this not clear that these wars shouldn't concern a Christian?
You've taken the above passage out of context and misapplied it. The fact that Christians at times face persecution because of their faith in Christ Jesus is a different issue than fighting in defense of your country. A believer in Christ Jesus is still a citizen of his country and when the war is a just war, fighting for the preservation of the lives and freedom of his fellow countrymen, it is honorable in the sight of God for a believer to fight.

Quote:
I do not accept that Jesus is God. Even if I did there are other scriptures in the Hebrew scriptures where the Isrealites didn't fight at all.
You don't accept that Jesus is God despite the fact that He is plainly and explicitly stated to be God in verses such as John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:10-12 compared with Psalm 102:25-27, as well as others.


Quote:
"You will not need to fight this battle. Take your position, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah in your behalf. O Judah and Jerusalem, do not be afraid or be terrified. Tomorrow go out against them, and Jehovah will be with you.’” - 2 Chronicles 20:17

So there are example of God fighting for His people and His people do no fighting at all. So which one should we do? Take our position but stand still, let God fight? or go to war? If you read the Greek Scriptures (NT) and listen to Jesus commandments we have our answer. We are not to fight. So, the battles over land are over according to Jesus' commandments.
And just how does that negate the fact that God instructed Moses to draft for the Israelite army all eligible males 20 years of age and older (Numbers 1:2-3; 26:2-4)? And how does that negate the fact that there were occasions when God told the Israelites to go to war?


On 'dual citizenship':
“No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other."-Matthew 6:24

"Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God."-James 4:4[/quote]

You have also misapplied those two verses. Neither one has anything to do with the believer's responsibilities as a citizen.

Quote:
"Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God;"-Romans 13:1
God delegates authority to whom He chooses. As Jesus told Pilate, ''Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above . . .'' (John 19:11).

But again, that verse is irrelevant to the issue of a believer fighting for his country.

Quote:
Fights for nations of the world are over and to join them puts a person at odds with God.
Wars are definitely not over. Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars until He returns (Matthew 24:6). As one of the laws of divine establishment nationalism was ordained by God. Individual nations are part of God's plan for human history. And since there will be warfare at various times, a strong military for national defense against aggressors is in order. And believers are not called upon to be conscientious objectors.

When the Roman centurion sent for Jesus to heal his servant, Jesus didn't reprimand him for being a soldier but instead marveled at the centurions faith which Jesus stated to be greater than that found in all of Israel (Matthew 8:5-10; Luke 7:1-10).

I don't expect you to change your views. I've had conversations with others on this forum who share your view about this same issue and they remained in their position as well. As I told you, your opinion on this is between you and the Lord. But many Christians understand that being in the military, and fighting if need be does not place the believer at odds with God. And so 2Timothy316, I suspect we will remain in disagreement.

My original pastor/teacher, Col. Robert B. Thieme, Jr., (who went to be with the Lord some years ago) pastor of Berachah Church in Houston Texas, had been commissioned as an officer in the cavalry. Nine months before Pearl Harbor, he transferred to the Army Air Corps. Prior to his release he was in charge of all Army Air Force cadet military trainng. As a pastor he wrote two publications called, ''Freedom Through Military Victory,'' and 'War, Moral or Immoral.'' His view was that the military was an honorable profession.


col r b thieme jr in uniform - Bing images
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Old 03-01-2016, 08:44 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,847 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You've taken the above passage out of context and misapplied it. The fact that Christians at times face persecution because of their faith in Christ Jesus is a different issue than fighting in defense of your country. A believer in Christ Jesus is still a citizen of his country and when the war is a just war, fighting for the preservation of the lives and freedom of his fellow countrymen, it is honorable in the sight of God for a believer to fight.


You don't accept that Jesus is God despite the fact that He is plainly and explicitly stated to be God in verses such as John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:10-12 compared with Psalm 102:25-27, as well as others.




And just how does that negate the fact that God instructed Moses to draft for the Israelite army all eligible males 20 years of age and older (Numbers 1:2-3; 26:2-4)? And how does that negate the fact that there were occasions when God told the Israelites to go to war?


On 'dual citizenship':
“No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other."-Matthew 6:24

"Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God."-James 4:4

You have also misapplied those two verses. Neither one has anything to do with the believer's responsibilities as a citizen.


God delegates authority to whom He chooses. As Jesus told Pilate, ''Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above . . .'' (John 19:11).

But again, that verse is irrelevant to the issue of a believer fighting for his country.



Wars are definitely not over. Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars until He returns (Matthew 24:6). As one of the laws of divine establishment nationalism was ordained by God. Individual nations are part of God's plan for human history. And since there will be warfare at various times, a strong military for national defense against aggressors is in order. And believers are not called upon to be conscientious objectors.

When the Roman centurion sent for Jesus to heal his servant, Jesus didn't reprimand him for being a soldier but instead marveled at the centurions faith which Jesus stated to be greater than that found in all of Israel (Matthew 8:5-10; Luke 7:1-10).

I don't expect you to change your views. I've had conversations with others on this forum who share your view about this same issue and they remained in their position as well. As I told you, your opinion on this is between you and the Lord. But many Christians understand that being in the military, and fighting if need be does not place the believer at odds with God. And so 2Timothy316, I suspect we will remain in disagreement.

My original pastor/teacher, Col. Robert B. Thieme, Jr., (who went to be with the Lord some years ago) pastor of Berachah Church in Houston Texas, had been commissioned as an officer in the cavalry. Nine months before Pearl Harbor, he transferred to the Army Air Corps. Prior to his release he was in charge of all Army Air Force cadet military trainng. As a pastor he wrote two publications called, ''Freedom Through Military Victory,'' and 'War, Moral or Immoral.'' His view was that the military was an honorable profession.


col r b thieme jr in uniform - Bing images
Show me the commandment word for word that Jesus told the Christian congregation to go to war for any country. There isn't one. There are only man-made doctrines that clearly have caught you in their trap.

You keep saying words like misapplied but that isn't true. They are perfectly applied with no doctrine clouding their meaning as you have done. These are word for word examples of what our conduct should be. It seems you ignore them because you glorify war. Meanwhile there is another person who thinks just like you only about his country. Guess what....his country is going down too just like yours. It will be Jesus to tear down all nations. There will be no exceptions. Jesus will be the one to do it, along with his armies in heaven, not Earth or some misguided leaders of some country. (Re 19:11-15) There will be an earthly army led by world rulers but it will not be on God's side. (Re 19:19)

Where is the Roman empire today? Where are the people that all those wars were fought for? They are all gone. Returned to dust. All those wars were for nothing. Every war is for nothing. All those that fight in the war die and the winners die eventually too, the ones the wars were fought for die, for what? Ideas that eventually fade way? Some way of life that eventually turns corrupt due to mankind's greed and violent nature! God doesn't run a democracy, a republic or any other kind of man-made form of government. Personally, I'd rather die following Jesus words who is eternal than fight for a country that is temporary. I might fight for a country if it gave someone else eternal life. But it doesn't. All those that fought in WWII are almost gone. Nowhere in the Bible does it say war keeps people alive forever. However, following Jesus commands does promise eternal life. I would also rather die following Jesus' commandments rather than point a gun at a follow Christian or anyone for that matter. Matthew 5:44 that says, "However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you," There is no way around this commandment.

"Because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires."-James 1:20

If you do ever go to war you will not have to worry about a true Christian fighting you. If another country goes war against my country they will not have worry about be fighting them.
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Old 03-01-2016, 09:43 AM
 
17,992 posts, read 9,875,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Where is the Roman empire today? Where are the people that all those wars were fought for? They are all gone. Returned to dust. All those wars were for nothing. Every war is for nothing. All those that fight in the war die and the winners die eventually too, the ones the wars were fought for die, for what? Ideas that eventually fade way? Some way of life that eventually turns corrupt due to mankind's greed and violent nature! God doesn't run a democracy, a republic or any other kind of man-made form of government. Personally, I'd rather die following Jesus words who is eternal than fight for a country that is temporary. I might fight for a country if it gave someone else eternal life. But it doesn't. All those that fought in WWII are almost gone.

In my 60s, I have finally taken Ecclesiastes into my gut. I spent a career in the military, from the Vietnam era through Bosnia. I was up to my neck in the Cold War, dealing with Cold War foes every day. Defeating the USSR was my life and passion for nearly three decades.


And then we did it. The USSR fell.


But it did not fall gradually like the Roman empire. A US military attaché in Eastern Europe reported the Soviets packing in haste, selling or dumping what they could not get loaded onto trucks, fleeing as though they were being chased. Activity at front-line fighter bases came to a standstill--they didn't even bother shoveling the snow off the runways. Cosmonauts in the MIR space station were frantic--the rocket scientists didn't show up for work at Baikonur Cosmodrome. The Soviet war machine--so stolid and indomitable for so many years--suddenly ground to a halt across the entire nation.


Looking at USSR military operations: One day things were normal, then suddenly there was chaos and disruption. It was like running your finger across an ant trail.


When we who were Christians discussed it, what came to mind was Daniel 10:20. We realized we had just witnessed the movement of a principality. Whatever had been controlling the USSR for 70 years with such singular purpose and iron will had simply arisen and moved elsewhere, and the edifice it had controlled fell like a puppet with its strings cut.


And immediately a new foe arose. Almost before we could take a breath we were in another war. That principality or another had found a new assignment, leaving Russia to "ordinary" human follies.


Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is in vane. -- Ecclesiastes 1:2


So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. -- 2 Corinthians 4


To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia -- 1 Peter 1


Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, Bithynia. Those were well-known regions 2000 years ago. Today we hardly know where they were. But the Body of Christ was in those places then, and the Body of Christ is here now, and the Body of Christ will be here--if the Lord tarries so long--when people will no longer be sure where Chicago or Los Angeles or New York City were.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:11 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
In my 60s, I have finally taken Ecclesiastes into my gut. I spent a career in the military, from the Vietnam era through Bosnia. I was up to my neck in the Cold War, dealing with Cold War foes every day. Defeating the USSR was my life and passion for nearly three decades.


And then we did it. The USSR fell.


But it did not fall gradually like the Roman empire. A US military attaché in Eastern Europe reported the Soviets packing in haste, selling or dumping what they could not get loaded onto trucks, fleeing as though they were being chased. Activity at front-line fighter bases came to a standstill--they didn't even bother shoveling the snow off the runways. Cosmonauts in the MIR space station were frantic--the rocket scientists didn't show up for work at Baikonur Cosmodrome. The Soviet war machine--so stolid and indomitable for so many years--suddenly ground to a halt across the entire nation.


Looking at USSR military operations: One day things were normal, then suddenly there was chaos and disruption. It was like running your finger across an ant trail.


When we who were Christians discussed it, what came to mind was Daniel 10:20. We realized we had just witnessed the movement of a principality. Whatever had been controlling the USSR for 70 years with such singular purpose and iron will had simply arisen and moved elsewhere, and the edifice it had controlled fell like a puppet with its strings cut.


And immediately a new foe arose. Almost before we could take a breath we were in another war. That principality or another had found a new assignment, leaving Russia to "ordinary" human follies.


Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is in vane. -- Ecclesiastes 1:2


So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. -- 2 Corinthians 4


To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia -- 1 Peter 1


Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, Bithynia. Those were well-known regions 2000 years ago. Today we hardly know where they were. But the Body of Christ was in those places then, and the Body of Christ is here now, and the Body of Christ will be here--if the Lord tarries so long--when people will no longer be sure where Chicago or Los Angeles or New York City were.
Epic words of wisdom and spot on scriptural reminders! Thank you so much for this insight and faith strengthening account that those that Jesus takes as a special possession have no borders.

"But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as foreigners and temporary residents to keep abstaining from fleshly desires, which wage war against you. Maintain your conduct fine among the nations, so that when they accuse you of being wrongdoers, they may be eyewitnesses of your fine works and, as a result, glorify God in the day of his inspection." 1 Peter 2:9-11
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:21 AM
 
17,992 posts, read 9,875,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Epic words of wisdom and spot on scriptural reminders! Thank you so much for this insight and faith strengthening account that those that Jesus takes as a special possession have no borders.

"But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as foreigners and temporary residents to keep abstaining from fleshly desires, which wage war against you. Maintain your conduct fine among the nations, so that when they accuse you of being wrongdoers, they may be eyewitnesses of your fine works and, as a result, glorify God in the day of his inspection." 1 Peter 2:9-11
That's the "team speech." Peter starts out calling us "dispersed exiles," but then brings us all together...physically dispersed, but yet a unified nation.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:55 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
That's the "team speech." Peter starts out calling us "dispersed exiles," but then brings us all together...physically dispersed, but yet a unified nation.
Exactly! And we will be able to recognize fellow citizens of that unified nation by those that 'maintain fine conduct among the nations'. Even those that perhaps didn't understand this unity before. Perhaps they did fight in wars for nations previously but now understand that God's nation is worldwide. If now they have turned to the 'fine conduct' of Jesus' example can join his nation, again Peter says it best. "At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial,but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." - Acts 10:34, 35

“See, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" - John 1:29
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:57 AM
 
20,309 posts, read 15,665,676 times
Reputation: 7433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You've taken the above passage out of context and misapplied it. The fact that Christians at times face persecution because of their faith in Christ Jesus is a different issue than fighting in defense of your country. A believer in Christ Jesus is still a citizen of his country and when the war is a just war, fighting for the preservation of the lives and freedom of his fellow countrymen, it is honorable in the sight of God for a believer to fight.


You don't accept that Jesus is God despite the fact that He is plainly and explicitly stated to be God in verses such as John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:10-12 compared with Psalm 102:25-27, as well as others.




And just how does that negate the fact that God instructed Moses to draft for the Israelite army all eligible males 20 years of age and older (Numbers 1:2-3; 26:2-4)? And how does that negate the fact that there were occasions when God told the Israelites to go to war?


On 'dual citizenship':
“No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other."-Matthew 6:24

"Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God."-James 4:4
You have also misapplied those two verses. Neither one has anything to do with the believer's responsibilities as a citizen.


God delegates authority to whom He chooses. As Jesus told Pilate, ''Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above . . .'' (John 19:11).

But again, that verse is irrelevant to the issue of a believer fighting for his country.



Wars are definitely not over. Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars until He returns (Matthew 24:6). As one of the laws of divine establishment nationalism was ordained by God. Individual nations are part of God's plan for human history. And since there will be warfare at various times, a strong military for national defense against aggressors is in order. And believers are not called upon to be conscientious objectors.

When the Roman centurion sent for Jesus to heal his servant, Jesus didn't reprimand him for being a soldier but instead marveled at the centurions faith which Jesus stated to be greater than that found in all of Israel (Matthew 8:5-10; Luke 7:1-10).

I don't expect you to change your views. I've had conversations with others on this forum who share your view about this same issue and they remained in their position as well. As I told you, your opinion on this is between you and the Lord. But many Christians understand that being in the military, and fighting if need be does not place the believer at odds with God. And so 2Timothy316, I suspect we will remain in disagreement.

My original pastor/teacher, Col. Robert B. Thieme, Jr., (who went to be with the Lord some years ago) pastor of Berachah Church in Houston Texas, had been commissioned as an officer in the cavalry. Nine months before Pearl Harbor, he transferred to the Army Air Corps. Prior to his release he was in charge of all Army Air Force cadet military trainng. As a pastor he wrote two publications called, ''Freedom Through Military Victory,'' and 'War, Moral or Immoral.'' His view was that the military was an honorable profession.


col r b thieme jr in uniform - Bing images

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Show me the commandment word for word that Jesus told the Christian congregation to go to war for any country. There isn't one. There are only man-made doctrines that clearly have caught you in their trap.

You keep saying words like misapplied but that isn't true. They are perfectly applied with no doctrine clouding their meaning as you have done. These are word for word examples of what our conduct should be. It seems you ignore them because you glorify war. Meanwhile there is another person who thinks just like you only about his country. Guess what....his country is going down too just like yours. It will be Jesus to tear down all nations. There will be no exceptions. Jesus will be the one to do it, along with his armies in heaven, not Earth or some misguided leaders of some country. (Re 19:11-15) There will be an earthly army led by world rulers but it will not be on God's side. (Re 19:19)

Where is the Roman empire today? Where are the people that all those wars were fought for? They are all gone. Returned to dust. All those wars were for nothing. Every war is for nothing. All those that fight in the war die and the winners die eventually too, the ones the wars were fought for die, for what? Ideas that eventually fade way? Some way of life that eventually turns corrupt due to mankind's greed and violent nature! God doesn't run a democracy, a republic or any other kind of man-made form of government. Personally, I'd rather die following Jesus words who is eternal than fight for a country that is temporary. I might fight for a country if it gave someone else eternal life. But it doesn't. All those that fought in WWII are almost gone. Nowhere in the Bible does it say war keeps people alive forever. However, following Jesus commands does promise eternal life. I would also rather die following Jesus' commandments rather than point a gun at a follow Christian or anyone for that matter. Matthew 5:44 that says, "However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you," There is no way around this commandment.

"Because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires."-James 1:20

If you do ever go to war you will not have to worry about a true Christian fighting you. If another country goes war against my country they will not have worry about be fighting them.
I understand why you feel the way that you do, but I don't agree with your view. And you are misapplying passages in your attempt to argue against Christians fighting in war.

No, I don't glorify war, but I recognize that there are times when it's necessary to fight. And it is no less valid for a Christian to fight in a just war then it was for the Israelites to fight for their nation. And God commanded the Israelites to go to war which means that they were not outside of His will in so doing. Whether you accept it or not, Jesus is God and as such He was the commander and chief of the Israelite army.

Certain principles were established by God for the preservation of the human race. Those principles are volition, marriage, family, and nationalism.

Nations were established by God as a means of preventing Satan from gaining total control over the world. Internationalism puts too much power in the hands of too few people and thus makes it easier for Satan to gain control. But when an evil nation aggresses against another nation, that nation has the right to defend itself against the aggressor and must do so in order to insure the life and liberty of those living in that nation.

Quoting Robert Thieme,
''No one has the right either to shirk military service or to be a so called conscientious objector on the basis of MORALITY, and certainly not on the principle of religion or CHRISTIANITY. From the standpoint of the Word of God, there is no such thing as a conscientious objector. There are cowards and people who are totally ignorant of Bible doctrine, but there is no Biblical basis for any American to be a conscientious objector.'' . . . ''The Bible has a great deal to say about war. The confusion in regard to war is obviously the result of ignorance of the divine viewpoint of the subject. Whether you like it or not, the BIBLE teaches that warfare which is necessary to protect your country and defend your freedoms is moral and justified. Immoral acts often are committed in war, but the principle of war is moral when war becomes necessary.''

[War, Moral or Immoral, Thieme, p. 13]
Needless to say, I agree with Thieme on this.
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