U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Who gets your loyality first?
Almighty God 22 81.48%
Your Country 5 18.52%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-01-2016, 10:09 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,560 times
Reputation: 62

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

Quoting Robert Thieme,
''No one has the right either to shirk military service or to be a so called conscientious objector on the basis of MORALITY, and certainly not on the principle of religion or CHRISTIANITY. From the standpoint of the Word of God, there is no such thing as a conscientious objector. There are cowards and people who are totally ignorant of Bible doctrine, but there is no Biblical basis for any American to be a conscientious objector.'' . . . ''The Bible has a great deal to say about war. The confusion in regard to war is obviously the result of ignorance of the divine viewpoint of the subject. Whether you like it or not, the BIBLE teaches that warfare which is necessary to protect your country and defend your freedoms is moral and justified. Immoral acts often are committed in war, but the principle of war is moral when war becomes necessary.''

[War, Moral or Immoral, Thieme, p. 13]
Needless to say, I agree with Thieme on this.
Then show the scripture that word for word Jesus commands us to go to war. Thieme didn't quote one either. Here are the scriptures one more time. If you don't agree, then it's is not me you are aren't agreeing with. So a counter your quote from Thieme with a quote from the Word of God.

"Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you." - Matthew 5:44

"Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says the Lord. But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good." - Romans 12:17-21

To heap fiery coals on ore in smelting is done to rise the temperature, so that the higher quality metals will separate from the rock. So by doing good to our enemies it is our hope that their better qualities will show in a person.

The way I see it, I either follow Thieme or the Bible. I will choose the Bible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-01-2016, 10:16 AM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,978,948 times
Reputation: 1957
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
When nations war against each other, should a true Christian join the fight in a war? If they do, then how will they explain to Jesus that they killed one of his followers? While on the Earth, Jesus could've amassed an army and fought the Romans for Israel but he didn't. Why not? How far should a person go in following Jesus Christ footsteps?
To a Christian it ought to be God. At least that's how the apostles viewed it. They were criticized for not declaring Caesar to be "Lord".

Having said that, I thank the men and women that serve our country and I tell them so when I meet one. I have tremendous respect for them, and often wonder if maybe I should have gone into the military out of high school.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2016, 10:18 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,654,940 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Then show the scripture that word for word Jesus commands us to go to war. Thieme didn't quote one either. Here are the scriptures one more time. If you don't agree, then it's is not me you are aren't agreeing with. So a counter your quote from Thieme with the Word of God.

"Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says the Lord. But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good." - Romans 12:17-21
I only provided a couple of specific quotes from Thieme. He said much more about the subject.

You aren't listening to anything I've said in my posts, and you are continuing to misuse passages which have nothing to do with the issue of warfare and national defense. During His public ministry Jesus didn't address the issue one way or the other concerning the validity of nations going to war. He did say however that there would continue to be wars and rumors of war. And for the reasons I have already provided, warfare when necessary is valid.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2016, 10:27 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,560 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
To a Christian it ought to be God. At least that's how the apostles viewed it. They were criticized for not declaring Caesar to be "Lord".

Having said that, I thank the men and women that serve our country and I tell them so when I meet one. I have tremendous respect for them, and often wonder if maybe I should have gone into the military out of high school.
You're correct. Worshipers had to burn a pinch of incense and say “Caesar is Lord” when entering certain public buildings, which Christians couldn't do. "For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2016, 10:30 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,560 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I only provided a couple of specific quotes from Thieme. He said much more about the subject.

You aren't listening to anything I've said in my posts, and you are continuing to misuse passages which have nothing to do with the issue of warfare and national defense. During His public ministry Jesus didn't address the issue one way or the other concerning the validity of nations going to war. He did say however that there would continue to be wars and rumors of war. And for the reasons I have already provided, warfare when necessary is valid.
Jesus was correct about wars in the future. But he was not commanding his followers to war. I have read every word in your post but you do not listen to the Bible and what it says. Just repeating yourself doesn't make your view right and doesn't make the scriptures quoted go away. Do you realize that you are allowing a man determine your viewpoint? This Thieme you speak of, is he inspired of God like the Bible? I think not. Thus why his views are quickly dismissed, because what he says is the exact opposite of what we are to do to our enemies. Not slightly off, not half right but completely opposite. No war by mankind has ever saved a nation from fading into history. Nor will mankind's wars ever bring anyone back.

"For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it." Luke 9:24

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 03-01-2016 at 11:07 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2016, 11:36 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,654,940 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Jesus was correct about wars in the future. But he was not commanding his followers to war. I have read every word in your post but you do not listen to the Bible and what it says. Just repeating yourself doesn't make your view right and doesn't make the scriptures quoted go away. Do you realize that you are allowing a man determine your viewpoint? This Thieme you speak of, is he inspired of God like the Bible? I think not. Thus why his views are quickly dismissed, because what he says is the exact opposite of what we are to do to our enemies. Not slightly off, not half right but completely opposite. No war by mankind has ever saved a nation from fading into history. Nor will mankind's wars ever bring anyone back.

"For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it." Luke 9:24
It is not I who am not ''listening to the Bible,'' for it is in the Bible, namely in the Old Testament where the principle of nationalism, and of justified warfare is found. Again, during His public ministry Jesus said nothing either way concerning believers going to war. The passages you list do not speak to that situation.

Nations both rise and fall by the sovereignty of God. To the extent that a nation follows the principles of divine establishment - volition, marriage, family, and nationalism, that nation will prosper. Certain things do not change from one dispensation to the next. The principle of nationalism is one of those things. Until Jesus returns, since there will be wars and rumors of war, peace loving nations much be prepared to fight for their freedom. This is moral and it is just. Whether believer or unbeliever, a person should be willing to fight if need be for the preservation of his country.

As for Robert B. Thieme, you can read the following information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Thieme

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries — Home
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2016, 11:56 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,560 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is not I who am not ''listening to the Bible,'' for it is in the Bible, namely in the Old Testament where the principle of nationalism, and of justified warfare is found. Again, during His public ministry Jesus said nothing either way concerning believers going to war. The passages you list do not speak to that situation.

Nations both rise and fall by the sovereignty of God. To the extent that a nation follows the principles of divine establishment - volition, marriage, family, and nationalism, that nation will prosper. Certain things do not change from one dispensation to the next. The principle of nationalism is one of those things. Until Jesus returns, since there will be wars and rumors of war, peace loving nations much be prepared to fight for their freedom. This is moral and it is just. Whether believer or unbeliever, a person should be willing to fight if need be for the preservation of his country.

As for Robert B. Thieme, you can read the following information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Thieme

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries — Home
“We must obey God as ruler rather than men."- Acts 5:29

Nationalism is over and God backs no nation. God's new nation has no borders.

“For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” - Acts 10:34, 35

Need I remind you that Jehovah even abandoned Israel after they had abandoned Him?

"For ‘I am summoning all the families of the kingdoms of the north,’ declares Jehovah, ‘And they will come; each one will set up his throne At the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, Against her walls all around And against all the cities of Judah. And I will declare my judgments against them over all their wickedness, Because they have abandoned me, And they are making sacrificial smoke to other godsAnd bowing down to the works of their own hands.’"-Jeremiah 1:15, 16



So much for nationalism. Israel didn't follow His commandments. What makes anyone think ignoring God's Son's commandment 'to love your enemies' (Matt 5:44) that they will not be abandoned as well? The Bible is clear, God is not partial. His Kingdom has no boarders.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2016, 01:38 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,654,940 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
“We must obey God as ruler rather than men."- Acts 5:29

Nationalism is over and God backs no nation. God's new nation has no borders.

“For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” - Acts 10:34, 35

Need I remind you that Jehovah even abandoned Israel after they had abandoned Him?

"For ‘I am summoning all the families of the kingdoms of the north,’ declares Jehovah, ‘And they will come; each one will set up his throne At the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, Against her walls all around And against all the cities of Judah. And I will declare my judgments against them over all their wickedness, Because they have abandoned me, And they are making sacrificial smoke to other godsAnd bowing down to the works of their own hands.’"-Jeremiah 1:15, 16



So much for nationalism. Israel didn't follow His commandments. What makes anyone think ignoring God's Son's commandment 'to love your enemies' (Matt 5:44) that they will not be abandoned as well? The Bible is clear, God is not partial. His Kingdom has no boarders.
Nationalism is not over. Nations continue to exist. And nations continue to look out for their own interests, though very often not wisely. Internationalism which is Satanic, that is, it is in opposition to God's plan has certainly seen an increase, but God's plan continues to call for nationalism.

Despite Israel's continued disobedience to God regarding idolatry, that does not negate the simple fact that God called for the Israelites to maintain an army, and at times go to war. This is plainly seen in the Old Testament.

You are a pacifist which is one of four views that Christians hold concerning the issue of violence. And to some extent, these views seem to be denominationally based.

Those four views are: 1.) Pacifism; 2.) Non-Resistance; 3.) Just War; 4.) Preventive War.

The Just War view is the view which has been held by most Christians throughout history according to the author of the following article; http://www.ptm.org/uni/resources/PDF...tiansFight.pdf

The Just War view maintains that a war waged in support of a nation's right to a peaceful existence, in other words, a defensive war against an aggressor, is ''just'' and Biblically permissible.

The very passages that you have used to justify your view are addressed in that article; http://www.ptm.org/uni/resources/PDF...tiansFight.pdf and shown to be not supportive of your view.

Since we live in a fallen world, armed conflict between nations is a fact of life and will continue to be until Christ returns. Peace loving nations must therefore be prepared to fight for their freedom and for peace. And the Bible supports warfare when necessary and does not forbid a Christian from fighting when necessary.

I will remind you again that Jesus did not criticize the Roman centurion, who was a believer, for being a soldier. Instead, Jesus marveled at the centurions faith.

Another centurion by the name of Cornelius was said to be a God-fearing man who prayed to God continually. God answered his prayers and had him send for Peter who gave him the gospel message so that he could believe on Jesus and be saved. Peter is not recorded as having said anything to Cornelius about leaving the Roman military (Acts chapters 10-11).

I do recommend carefully and fully reading the article ('Should Christians Fight') in which the four views I mentioned are addressed. http://www.ptm.org/uni/resources/PDF...tiansFight.pdf
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2016, 02:28 PM
 
741 posts, read 271,560 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Nationalism is not over. Nations continue to exist. And nations continue to look out for their own interests, though very often not wisely. Internationalism which is Satanic, that is, it is in opposition to God's plan has certainly seen an increase, but God's plan continues to call for nationalism.

Despite Israel's continued disobedience to God regarding idolatry, that does not negate the simple fact that God called for the Israelites to maintain an army, and at times go to war. This is plainly seen in the Old Testament.

You are a pacifist which is one of four views that Christians hold concerning the issue of violence. And to some extent, these views seem to be denominationally based.

Those four views are: 1.) Pacifism; 2.) Non-Resistance; 3.) Just War; 4.) Preventive War.

The Just War view is the view which has been held by most Christians throughout history according to the author of the following article; http://www.ptm.org/uni/resources/PDF...tiansFight.pdf

The Just War view maintains that a war waged in support of a nation's right to a peaceful existence, in other words, a defensive war against an aggressor, is ''just'' and Biblically permissible.

The very passages that you have used to justify your view are addressed in that article; http://www.ptm.org/uni/resources/PDF...tiansFight.pdf and shown to be not supportive of your view.

Since we live in a fallen world, armed conflict between nations is a fact of life and will continue to be until Christ returns. Peace loving nations must therefore be prepared to fight for their freedom and for peace. And the Bible supports warfare when necessary and does not forbid a Christian from fighting when necessary.

I will remind you again that Jesus did not criticize the Roman centurion, who was a believer, for being a soldier. Instead, Jesus marveled at the centurions faith.

Another centurion by the name of Cornelius was said to be a God-fearing man who prayed to God continually. God answered his prayers and had him send for Peter who gave him the gospel message so that he could believe on Jesus and be saved. Peter is not recorded as having said anything to Cornelius about leaving the Roman military (Acts chapters 10-11).

I do recommend carefully and fully reading the article ('Should Christians Fight') in which the four views I mentioned are addressed. http://www.ptm.org/uni/resources/PDF...tiansFight.pdf
You keep suggesting other sources other than the Bible that is trying to give you a pass on the commandment, 'love your enemies'. As far as that soldier and his faith, do you think that he followed Jesus commandments? Do you have any evidence that he didn't follow Jesus commandments? Do you have any evidence that he didn't love his enemies? No. Also why are you following others? Is Jesus' commandment not enough? Do you know what happened to Israel when they went to war without God's commandment to do so?

So again you must must must show me a commandment from the Christian Greek Scriptures where it says to go to war. No commandment no war. Do not send me to anything other than the Bible that must say, word for word. Kill your enemies. Nothing less will do. I don't care what the Israelites did in the past. The Bible says 'it is better to obey than to sacrifice'. (1 Samuel 15:22) It is better to obey Jesus and die than disobey and die. 'War is permissible' is the exact opposite of the commandment 'love your enemies'. Please say you can see it. All you have to say is that your reject Jesus' words and be done with it. As far as I can see you reject Jesus' commandment to 'love your enemies'. Jesus died for his enemies so that they might have a chance to repent and live. Will you?

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 03-01-2016 at 02:36 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2016, 03:09 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,654,940 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
You keep suggesting other sources other than the Bible that is trying to give you a pass on the commandment, 'love your enemies'. As far as that soldier and his faith, do you think that he followed Jesus commandments? Do you have any evidence that he didn't follow Jesus commandments? Do you have any evidence that he didn't love his enemies? No. Also why are you following others? Is Jesus' commandment not enough? Do you know what happened to Israel when they went to war without God's commandment to do so?

So again you must must must show me a commandment from the Christian Greek Scriptures where it says to go to war. No commandment no war. Do not send me to anything other than the Bible that must say, word for word. Kill your enemies. Nothing less will do. I don't care what the Israelites did in the past. The Bible says 'it is better to obey than to sacrifice'. (1 Samuel 15:22) It is better to obey Jesus and die than disobey and die. 'War is permissible' is the exact opposite of the commandment 'love your enemies'. Please say you can see it. All you have to say is that your reject Jesus' words and be done with it. As far as I can see you reject Jesus' commandment to 'love your enemies'. Jesus died for his enemies so that they might have a chance to repent and live. Will you?
As is the case with so many, you show no objectivity when faced with views contrary to your own. You have already been shown from Scripture that justified war is legitimate. I have also stated that during His public ministry Jesus was silent on the issue and so, no, I do not have to show you a commandment from the 'Christian Greek Scriptures' where it says to go to war. You have been shown from the Old Testament that God commanded war at times. The principle of justified warfare has not changed.

And I have sent you to a source other than the Bible which explains from the Bible that defensive war is justified and that the verses that you are using to support your argument, actually do not. I take it from your reply that you will not even bother to read it. That demonstrates a lack of objectivity on your part, and an unwillingness to learn.

Justified warfare is not contrary to the command to ''love your enemies.'' That too is addressed in the article to which I have sent you. But since you won't bother to read it, neither will I bother to explain it to you.

I send you once again to the article. Read it or don't. That's up to you.

http://www.ptm.org/uni/resources/PDF...tiansFight.pdf

And with that, this discussion has gone on long enough. I have no desire to spend my time arguing with closed minds.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top