U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Who gets your loyality first?
Almighty God 22 81.48%
Your Country 5 18.52%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 03-02-2016, 07:13 AM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
4,663 posts, read 3,747,430 times
Reputation: 3925

Advertisements

DEFINITELY to my country.

two reasons.
First, those of us who live in the Good Ol' USA are Americans first, and Christians/Buddhists/Muslims/Atheists/Rastafarians second.

Second, Last I checked, of the two choices, my country is real. "Almighty God" Is not real. No such thing.
So why put something that does not even exist over that which provides for my lifestyle?
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-02-2016, 08:02 AM
 
741 posts, read 272,842 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You have the article I provided which explains why justified warfare is not contrary to loving your enemy.

Read that. You won't. And we're done.
Weighing that article vs Jesus words. Jesus wins. All I can hope is that when the time comes, you are not found in an army waging war against God's Son. "If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword." Revelation 13:10. There's God warning, all I can do is point to it and yes we are done.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-02-2016, 08:03 AM
 
741 posts, read 272,842 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Jesus and his first-century followers were always politically neutral in the affairs of the world.
Even within the issues of the day between the Jews verses the Romans their stand was neutral.
Jesus taught to lay down weapons - Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10
The weapons of Christian warfare are Not carnal but spiritual - 2nd Corinthians 10:4 - with spiritual armor - Ephesians 6:11-17
However, Jesus is Not a pacifist because Jesus believes in God's final war of Armageddon.
According to Revelation 19:11 Jesus is a righteous warrior. Jesus carries on war in righteousness.
That means No one innocent will be in harm's way.
Please Notice at Isaiah 11:3-4 and Revelation 19:11,14-15 it is the ' executional words ' from Jesus' mouth that will do away with the wicked being destroying forever - Psalm 92:7
The birds are used according to Revelation 19:17-19
As Jeremiah wrote the wicked will be as manure on the surface of the ground - Jeremiah 25:31-33

Back in the first century Jesus told his followers to flee out of Jerusalem when Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies. Four years later after the armies withdrew then they came back, and what Jesus said came to pass in the year 70 when the Roman armies destroyed unfaithful Jerusalem.
That siege is what is referenced at Luke 19:14,27; Luke 20:43-44; Luke 21:20-22

We are now nearing the soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33,37.
Righteous people can remain alive on earth, and continue to live on earth right through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14, and they can continue living right into Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth, when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
Yes! Excellent Biblical references!
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-02-2016, 08:12 AM
 
741 posts, read 272,842 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Being that God tells us:
1) Submission to authorities because government is established by God for his purpose Romans 13

2) A Time for everything Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 which ends with "a time for war, and a time for peace"

The truth is it is out of love for God that if your country goes to war and you're asked to serve, you do so.
Paul said in Romans 12:17 " Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.”But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.”Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good."

Romans 13:1 says, "Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God;" Commandments from God overtake anything the nations would have us do. What is the commandment from God? Jesus relayed it us, as Christians we do not live in a time for war but in a time of peace. Matt 5:44 Jesus said, "However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you." This commandment is greater than the Earth's authorities. There is no commandment from Jesus to fight for any country. We shouldn't be looking to our countries for safety. We should be looking to God.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-02-2016, 08:20 AM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
21,136 posts, read 21,183,892 times
Reputation: 23168
There is a place in the Bible that talks about this. There does not have to be a difference. Every power that is on earth is allowed by God or it would not exist. The Bible clearly teaches that we are to obey the laws of the country we are living in except when it tells us to do something such as abortion. And in America, abortion is the choice of the individual.

If your position or job is causing you to have a conflict with what you are to do, your right is to quit that job or position. Or you can run for office and try to get things changed but you do not have the right to say, "I don't like that law so I won't enforce it." Even our president needs to learn that.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-02-2016, 08:28 AM
 
741 posts, read 272,842 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
If that is a valid interpretation of Romans 13, then it is as valid for a Christian in China or North Korea as it is for a Christian in America. It means that an Iranian Christian called to some future war against Israel is bound by your interpretation of Romans 13 to fight for the Iranians.
Right. Thus it can't be a valid understanding of Romans 13:1 because it would have Christians killing their own at God's request. Why would God have righteous people killing righteous people? For pieces of dirt? For some regional ideology that doesn't support God's laws? Some countries ideologies are completely opposite of God's laws. Why would God want people to die for them?

Here is the true test of faith for a whole nation. What if they followed what Jesus said to do concerning their enemies. Treated them kindly. If they needed food, give them food. If they need something to drink, give them something to drink. Helped them with whatever crisis they were facing. Would God bless that nation for following His Son's words? There's the true test of faith. There are some reading this thinking that would be impossible. Yet Jesus said, "Looking at them intently, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” - Matthew 19:26
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-02-2016, 10:10 AM
 
741 posts, read 272,842 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
There is a place in the Bible that talks about this. There does not have to be a difference. Every power that is on earth is allowed by God or it would not exist. The Bible clearly teaches that we are to obey the laws of the country we are living in except when it tells us to do something such as abortion. And in America, abortion is the choice of the individual.

If your position or job is causing you to have a conflict with what you are to do, your right is to quit that job or position. Or you can run for office and try to get things changed but you do not have the right to say, "I don't like that law so I won't enforce it." Even our president needs to learn that.
It is true. We can't say we agree to the life and law Jesus left for us to follow then pick what we will or will not follow. The Israelites picked what they would or wouldn't follow over and over with decades of warnings to change their ways. They ended up turning to false worship that included child sacrifice by burning them alive and child prostitution in their temples. Of course God is not going to keep supporting a nation that does these things. Just because a nations laws permit something doesn't mean they line up with God's laws.

So now, there are no borders to His Kingdom. Any person that follows the life led by Jesus as closely as they can will be a citizen of God's Kingdom no matter where they live. Rather than forcing a nation to follow commandments, which God has proven is impossible through Israel's example. He now asks for people from everywhere to follow Him that wants to from every corner of the Earth. When all other nations have fallen, those that have been following God's Son will be left standing united with Jesus as king.

John said it best, "“The one who bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’” “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” May the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus be with the holy ones." - Rev 22:20, 21

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 03-02-2016 at 10:21 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-02-2016, 10:34 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,835,683 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Paul said in Romans 12:17 " Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.”But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.”Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good."

Romans 13:1 says, "Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God;" Commandments from God overtake anything the nations would have us do. What is the commandment from God? Jesus relayed it us, as Christians we do not live in a time for war but in a time of peace. Matt 5:44 Jesus said, "However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you." This commandment is greater than the Earth's authorities. There is no commandment from Jesus to fight for any country. We shouldn't be looking to our countries for safety. We should be looking to God.
And God established governments as his agent in part for "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer"

Fact is your premise is the proverbial nose of the camel peering into the business of the Judge's right to deal with his creation that is under his control.

Last edited by twin.spin; 03-02-2016 at 10:44 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-02-2016, 10:43 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,835,683 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
If that is a valid interpretation of Romans 13, then it is as valid for a Christian in China or North Korea as it is for a Christian in America. It means that an Iranian Christian called to some future war against Israel is bound by your interpretation of Romans 13 to fight for the Iranians.
Christians on opposite sides still live in a broken world ... and that broken world will produce wars till the end of the world at Christ's return.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-02-2016, 10:59 AM
 
741 posts, read 272,842 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
And God established governments as his agent in part for "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer"

Fact is your premise is the proverbial nose of the camel peering into the business of the Judges right to deal with his creation that is under his control.
And that is fine. I don't disagree with what Paul said about the nations. But you can't ignore the rest of Paul's inspired writings as far as the conduct of a Christian.

That very same chapter you are quoting goes on. "There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. That is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. Render to all their dues: to the one who calls for the tax, the tax; to the one who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to the one who calls for fear, such fear; to the one who calls for honor, such honor. Do not owe anything to anyone except to love one another; for whoever loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. For the law code, “You must not commit adultery, you must not murder, you must not steal, you must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this saying: “You must love your neighbor as yourself." Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore, love is the law’s fulfillment."


War is a violation of 'you must love your neighbor', it is evil. We are to follow the laws of the nation we are in. Yet when it comes to going against loving one another we can't violate that law of what many know as the Golden Rule. So if you go to war and kill your neighbor that is murder. Plain and simple. Again as it was pointed out, we can't pick and choose what scriptures will uphold and the ones we will not. We can't just listen to part of a chapter or part of a book and base doctrine on it. No where does Paul support war but he does support our obeying their laws as long as they don't conflict with God's law. War is in conflict with the Golden Rule. Therefore to follow the law we owe love to our neighbor anything less is not following the law of the Christ.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top