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View Poll Results: Who gets your loyality first?
Almighty God 22 81.48%
Your Country 5 18.52%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-02-2016, 10:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Christians on opposite sides still live in a broken world ... and that broken world will produce wars till the end of the world at Christ's return.
So are we citizens of Heaven--ambassadors to the nations of the earth, according to scripture-- supposed to align ourselves with those breaks?


Analogy: Let's say the US posts Ambassador Smith and his staff in Iraq and posts Ambassador Jones and his staff in Kuwait. As diplomats in the countries of their posting, Smith and Jones are required to:


1. Obey the local laws
2. Honor the local officials
3. Pay taxes as levied on them.


But then Iraq declares war on Kuwait. Do Smith and Jones join the respective armies of Iraq and Kuwait and fight against one another?
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:13 AM
 
741 posts, read 272,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
So are we citizens of Heaven--ambassadors to the nations of the earth, according to scripture-- supposed to align ourselves with those breaks?


Analogy: Let's say the US posts Ambassador Smith and his staff in Iraq and posts Ambassador Jones and his staff in Kuwait. As diplomats in the countries of their posting, Smith and Jones are required to:


1. Obey the local laws
2. Honor the local officials
3. Pay taxes as levied on them.


But then Iraq declares war on Kuwait. Do Smith and Jones join the respective armies of Iraq and Kuwait and fight against one another?
Ralph, I'm stealing every example you have made in this thread. They're excellent. Well said.
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:37 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,054,830 times
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To whom it may concern:

Matthew 24:5-7 (NASB)
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes


Interesting that Jesus did say, "See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place. Also He warned, "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom ."

Now I wonder why He said such that is in warning the world of that which would happen, warning us that war was inevitable and would happen and not to be frightened because it is not yet the end !
He doesn't tell us to go and hide, nor does He say stay and fight. But common sense tell us in what He warned knowing that in the time of these wars men would have to fight against the aggression and threats to protect the ppl. or He would have spoken and warned otherwise against it .

Just like Twin posted, And God established governments as his agent in part for "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer"
This is scripture and of God.... one can find it in Romans 13:1-3

[ Be Subject to Government ] "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same."


One has to be careful to whom they listen too as Jesus warned also that "false Christ and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:24 (NASB)"

And now days we hear and see so much garbage that those who claim to be spokesmen of God and yet they are sent too deceive and Jesus even said the elect could possibly be mislead !!

Discernment in the Spirit is the utmost importance in the life of a believer !! Especially in these last days as there are many voices out there that claim the words of Christ and yet they twist what is truly be said of our Lord, we know who is behind the twisting of God's truth. Jesus called him the father of lies and he has deceived many into believing his lies and to do his work in drawing ppl astray from the love of God.


We can even read in Revelation which speaks of the war of all times which is to come (the end of time) it was He which was the Authority that gave to those too kill with the sword, famine and with pestilence.

Revelation 6:8 (NASB)
I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Who do you think it is that is in this scripture that will go out conquering to conquer ?

"I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. Revelation 6:2 (NASB)"

Reference to Rev.6:2 in whom it is,

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war." Revelation 19:11(NASB)

AND,

"And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh." Rev.19:19


Please, it is so important to be in the word of God so that the Spirit will bring back to your remembrance the warnings, protection from the many, many heresies of our time which is a sure sign of the time drawing closer to the coming of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ !!


Last note:
Such individuals as what the OP is projecting about war that if a man fought and killed they are not a true Christian, and not obeying Jesus, well, we are told stay away from these type of men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God .

Well apparently these individuals that believe a man or ppl are not to fight a battle to defend we can see that they have been overthrown for centuries as God has called, permitted a time when war was the answer or else God would have prevented !
History repeats it self and it is no different with those who protested the Vietnam war and ran to Canada to dodge the draft, rather then be drafted and help protect and defend those in a time of need (war) !
I believe in Rev. this type of character it is called a coward. And whether they realize it or not but fear is really the hidden agenda. Fear can deceive one in many different ways !! And what is sad is using Jesus for their excuse within their fear and to not do what is it they are called to do !

A man that stands up and steps in to protect his family, country is the man who is fearless and strong in their God, honoring and obeying His call ! And this man' character is one that you fight against, you fight against God, amen !!

Acts 5:36-39 (NASB)
36 For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.
37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered.
38 So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;
39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”


Just another note: The OP is of the religion called JW's and they believe anyone who does not belong to their kingdom hall is Satan. So be warned that you are satan in their eyes and therefore they will not listen to anything other then what another JW has to say .
Remember, "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Matt.24:11" that includes groups such as JW's and many more out there that believe they are the true church of Christ !! And everyone else is the deceiver !! Please educate yourselves with these type of groups of ppl who claim such things !!
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Old 03-02-2016, 12:38 PM
 
741 posts, read 272,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
T


Well apparently these individuals that believe a man or ppl are not to fight a battle to defend we can see that they have been overthrown for centuries as God has called, permitted a time when war was the answer or else God would have prevented !
History repeats it self and it is no different with those who protested the Vietnam war and ran to Canada to dodge the draft, rather then be drafted and help protect and defend those in a time of need (war)
Did the US win that war? How did the South Vietnam fair in that war?

Also, Those willing to die following Jesus word to 'love their enemies'. I see no cowardly action. I fact I see more courage in such a person who is trusting Jesus's commandments more than trusting the the use of force. I also wouldn't dodge the draft if I was still old enough to be drafted. I'd gladly go to prison for my trust in Jesus example. A peaceful person in prison for not killing. What is the world coming to?

"If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you." - John 17:18. So if you dislike me for my stance, this in fact builds my faith.
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Old 03-02-2016, 01:54 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Did the US win that war? How did the South Vietnam fair in that war?

Also, Those willing to die following Jesus word to 'love their enemies'. I see no cowardly action. I fact I see more courage in such a person who is trusting Jesus's commandments more than trusting the the use of force. I also wouldn't dodge the draft if I was still old enough to be drafted. I'd gladly go to prison for my trust in Jesus example. A peaceful person in prison for not killing. What is the world coming to?

"If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you." - John 17:18. So if you dislike me for my stance, this in fact builds my faith.
I'm sorry but what you have to say, 2Timothy316, is meaningless as I truly believe my Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ .
By the way, what do you think about the scripture from Matt.24:5-7, Rev.6:8; Rev. 6:2; Rev.19:19; Rev.19:11 ? They contradict everything you are claiming in this Thread. You asked for scripture in the NT about Jesus and His Authority about war, killing, and etc., why are you dodging the fact scripture has been given to you and has proven to you there is scripture about war and killing and about Jesus in whom is going to fight in the end of time against the power of darkness and sin ?

Also I believe I read somewhere where you posted about your age and it is possibly around the same age as my hb (67), so you were at the age of the Vietnam war to be drafted. As the draft began in 1940 until 1973. So how did you escape not having to sign up for the draft as it was mandatory when a young man was at the age of 18 years old he had to enroll in the draft whether he was going to war or not . And just for the record I was not talking about you personally and the draft dodgers !!

You say, "I also wouldn't dodge the draft if I was still old enough to be drafted. I'd gladly go to prison for my trust in Jesus example. A peaceful person in prison for not killing,"
now aren't you not contradicting yourself in your own statement above ?

This has nothing to do with dislike. Please don't put words in my mouth. That statement is you projecting your own feelings and words on someone else in stating, "So if you dislike me for my stance, !!" and once again using Jesus and the scripture to excuse you attitude that you are right and every one else is wrong .

LOL, I'm sorry but just so you know that your not the only person in whom has been chosen out of this world. And you speaking heresy is the reason those in this thread are opposing your teaching not because we are of the world and hate you !! Do you have that persecution complex ?

I truly believe if and when you are ever faced with the choice having to protect wife, children, family, another soul it is not and won't be as easy as you're making it out to be.
Be careful for God may test you in what you so proudly proclaim. Just to show you, your heart has been wrong, especially about others !! You know the word of God says, "Pride comes before the fall ."

Blessings
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Old 03-02-2016, 01:54 PM
Status: "Getting older everyday" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: Willamette valley, oregon
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It seemed like a simple question, at least for me. My loyalty goes to my family and friends.
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willamette City View Post
It seemed like a simple question, at least for me. My loyalty goes to my family and friends.
For a Christian, the answer to the question as posed, "Who first?" certainly should be simple enough. If it's difficult for a Christian in America, he need only realize that the correct answer would be the same for a Christian anywhere at any time.
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:29 PM
 
741 posts, read 272,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
I'm sorry but what you have to say, 2Timothy316, is meaningless as I truly believe my Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ .
By the way, what do you think about the scripture from Matt.24:5-7, Rev.6:8; Rev. 6:2; Rev.19:19; Rev.19:11 ? They contradict everything you are claiming in this Thread. You asked for scripture in the NT about Jesus and His Authority about war, killing, and etc., why are you dodging the fact scripture has been given to you and has proven to you there is scripture about war and killing and about Jesus in whom is going to fight in the end of time against the power of darkness and sin ?
No they don't contradict what I am claiming. However, you saying that your country is acting for Jesus Christ. However, the scriptures you pointed to say Jesus Christ will act for Jesus Christ. Neither you nor any country will fight for Jesus when he takes the fight to the nations. Which by the way includes all nations. There are no exceptions. If you do believe Jesus is your savior then why don't you follow his commandment to 'love your enemies'?

Lets look at those scriptures now.

Matt 24:4-7
"In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another."

Do you not see in one thought that those that will mislead many are mentioned together with the wars? Do you not see I am making sure that you do not mislead me? Nation vs nation. Not Christian vs nations. No mention of God backing any nation. They fight on their own accord not by God's commandment. It goes on about true followers, "“Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name." Do you not see that nations will despise true followers? There are two groups Jesus was speaking about ones that follow and ones that don't. The ones that do follow Jesus, the nations will hate. Does your nation hate you? Or does it love you?

Revelation 6:8
"And I saw, and look! a pale horse, and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth."

There is no commandment here to go to war. This is about the pale horse rider that has been riding for decades. Callous death, that doesn't care who dies and how. Is this what you wish to identify yourself with?

Revelation 6:2
"And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest."

No nation is the rider of the White Horse and no crown is given to any nation. The rider is Jesus Christ, he has the bow and given the crown.. This is not a commandment to go to war.

Revelation 19:19
"And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army."

You do understand it is not a good thing to be in the army with the kings of the earth, right? If I refuse to join an army for war and you do, who's army do think you're joining when you side with a king of the earth. In this case, POTUS?

Revelation 19:11
"I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness."

Again, this is Jesus it's speaking of and not your country. There is no nation on Earth that is Jesus Christ. Jesus fights his own war. There is no mention at all that he will use any nation to fight for him.


I'd highly recommend not putting your country in the seat of God's appointed king Jesus. Because the way you have presented these scriptures, it's exactly what you have done. It seems you wish to be Jesus as a powerful spirit being and not the example he left as a man on earth. The example he left on earth is the one we follow. We can't follow him like we have all the power in the universe.

"In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely."-1 Peter 2:21 Jesus has already left the model for us to follow. Otherwise the scripture would say 'is going to leave' a model.

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 03-02-2016 at 02:47 PM..
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:43 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
And God established governments as his agent in part for "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer"

Fact is your premise is the proverbial nose of the camel peering into the business of the Judge's right to deal with his creation that is under his control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
And that is fine. I don't disagree with what Paul said about the nations. But you can't ignore the rest of Paul's inspired writings as far as the conduct of a Christian.

That very same chapter you are quoting goes on. "There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. That is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. Render to all their dues: to the one who calls for the tax, the tax; to the one who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to the one who calls for fear, such fear; to the one who calls for honor, such honor. Do not owe anything to anyone except to love one another; for whoever loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. For the law code, “You must not commit adultery, you must not murder, you must not steal, you must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this saying: “You must love your neighbor as yourself." Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore, love is the law’s fulfillment."


War is a violation of 'you must love your neighbor', it is evil. We are to follow the laws of the nation we are in. Yet when it comes to going against loving one another we can't violate that law of what many know as the Golden Rule. So if you go to war and kill your neighbor that is murder. Plain and simple. Again as it was pointed out, we can't pick and choose what scriptures will uphold and the ones we will not. We can't just listen to part of a chapter or part of a book and base doctrine on it. No where does Paul support war but he does support our obeying their laws as long as they don't conflict with God's law. War is in conflict with the Golden Rule. Therefore to follow the law we owe love to our neighbor anything less is not following the law of the Christ.
"So if you go to war and kill your neighbor that is murder. Plain and simple. ... War is a violation of 'you must love your neighbor', it is evil"

There is a simple flaw in your humanistic conclusions,
" Plain and simple ... go to war ... and kill your neighbor that is murder."
Jesus never stated such.
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:51 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,054,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
No they don't contradict what I am claiming. However, you saying that your country is acting for Jesus Christ. However, the scriptures you pointed to say Jesus Christ will act for Jesus Christ. Neither you nor any country will fight for Jesus when he takes the fight to the nations. Which by the way includes all nations. There are no exceptions.

Lets look at those scriptures now.

Matt 24:4-7
"In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another."

Do you not see in one thought that those that will mislead many are mentioned together with the wars? Do you not see I am making sure that you do not mislead me? Nation vs nation. Not God versus nation. No mention of backing any nation. They fight on their own accord not by God's commandment. It goes on about true followers, "“Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name." Do you not see that nations will despise true followers? There are two groups Jesus was speaking about ones that follow and ones that don't. The ones that do follow Jesus, the nations will hate. Does your nation hate you? Or does it love you?

Revelation 6:8
"And I saw, and look! a pale horse, and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth."

There is no commandment here to go to war. This is about the pale horse rider that has been riding for decades. Callous death, that doesn't care who dies and how. Is this what you wish to identify yourself with?

Revelation 6:2
"And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest."

No nation is the rider of the White Horse and no crown is given to any nation. The rider is Jesus Christ, he has the bow and given the crown.. This is not a commandment to go to war.

Revelation 19:19
"And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army."

You do understand it is not a good thing to be in the army with the kings of the earth, right? If I refuse to join an army for war and you do, who's army do think you're joining when you side with a king of the earth. In this case, POTUS?

Revelation 19:11
"I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness."

Again, this is Jesus it's speaking of and not your country. There is no nation on Earth that is Jesus Christ. Jesus fights his own war. There is no mention at all that he will use any nation to fight for him.


I'd highly recommend not putting your country in the seat of God's appointed king Jesus. Because the way you have presented these scriptures, it's exactly what you have done. It seems you wish to be Jesus as a powerful spirit being and not the example he left as a man on earth. The example he left on earth is the one we follow. We can't follow him as having all the power in the universe.

"In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely."-1 Peter 2:21 Jesus has already left the model for us to follow. Otherwise the scripture would say 'is going to leave' a model.
I'm sorry I just can not stomach your twisting of God's truth ! You are so misunderstanding and so taking the word of God out of context it unbelievable .
I do hope you will turn from this kind of heart of what one is interpreting His Holy Scriptures to say . I can truly see the brainwashing with JW heresy is deep ! I'll be praying for you !

ETA: I believe it is you that, "It seems you wish to be Jesus as a powerful spirit being and not the example he left as a man on earth."
Just in what you are posting to the people in this thread, they are wrong and you are right !!

Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 03-02-2016 at 03:01 PM..
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