U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-02-2016, 08:47 PM
 
8,671 posts, read 11,921,078 times
Reputation: 3138

Advertisements

How come modern Bible believing Christians no longer care about prohibiting the use of contraceptives, like they did in the not so distant past, including those used by married men and women?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-02-2016, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,588,039 times
Reputation: 6006
I grew up in evangelicalism in the 1960s through the early 1990s and don't recall contraception being taught against other than outside of marriage, and that was based on the notion that sex outside of marriage is a sin called fornication and the availability of contraceptives encourages that sin. That's not an opposition to contraceptives per se.

To my knowledge official restrictions or prohibitions on contraception even within marriage is mostly the province of Catholicism, plus the Old Order Amish and a few other unusually strident fundamentalist sects. You have to go back 75 to 100 years to find more widespread opposition, and if you go back much further than that, there weren't many birth control options, anyway. The only exception I've ever heard of is a particular birth control method that is considered an abortion agent, such as the "morning after" pill -- which is an issue for people who oppose abortion on moral grounds.

What this suggests to me is that apart from certain exceptions, birth control was embraced pretty quickly by most Christians as it became available, probably with the usual one-generation lag. Even in the RCC, many who belong to that church don't observe official prohibitions ... particularly in the US.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2016, 02:23 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,070,917 times
Reputation: 2972
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
How come modern Bible believing Christians no longer care about prohibiting the use of contraceptives, like they did in the not so distant past, including those used by married men and women?
Perhaps they have just realized it is a lost battle and that there is no reason to throw good money after bad, or sacrifice good resources on the front lines of a lost battle front?

There are NO arguments against contraception AT ALL that hold even a modicum of coherence. The closest thing they have to an argument is one that is not even supported by that many statistics.... which is that an increased availability of contraception correlates with an increased experimentation with sex in our young.......... yet even when they make that argument they struggle to press it into any actual relevance or service.

The Churches, including the Catholic Church, who have attempted to place controls on who has sex, when, how and with whom..... have simply lost the fight. They have lost it as badly as they have lost the moral ground to even make the attempt through their own sexual indiscretions and crimes.

They have lost not only the fight through lack of arguments, but the moral ground to even presume to HAVE the fight. Is it really any wonder then why it seems they no longer care to try? Any of them, members of the catholic church hierarchy especially, should be embarrassed to even presume to step up and dictate sexual morality or ethics to anyone.

If they want to try then they should go back to the basics of Christianity with phrases like "By their fruits you will known them", and simply live an example of sexual purity in life. No religion, least of all Christianity, should be preaching or dictating to anyone. They are meant to be religions of following a personal path and leading by example alone.

Or put even simpler: Put up or shut up.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2016, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Sumter, SC
1,781 posts, read 1,919,199 times
Reputation: 1227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Perhaps they have just realized it is a lost battle and that there is no reason to throw good money after bad, or sacrifice good resources on the front lines of a lost battle front?

There are NO arguments against contraception AT ALL that hold even a modicum of coherence. The closest thing they have to an argument is one that is not even supported by that many statistics.... which is that an increased availability of contraception correlates with an increased experimentation with sex in our young.......... yet even when they make that argument they struggle to press it into any actual relevance or service.

The Churches, including the Catholic Church, who have attempted to place controls on who has sex, when, how and with whom..... have simply lost the fight. They have lost it as badly as they have lost the moral ground to even make the attempt through their own sexual indiscretions and crimes.

They have lost not only the fight through lack of arguments, but the moral ground to even presume to HAVE the fight. Is it really any wonder then why it seems they no longer care to try? Any of them, members of the catholic church hierarchy especially, should be embarrassed to even presume to step up and dictate sexual morality or ethics to anyone.

If they want to try then they should go back to the basics of Christianity with phrases like "By their fruits you will known them", and simply live an example of sexual purity in life. No religion, least of all Christianity, should be preaching or dictating to anyone. They are meant to be religions of following a personal path and leading by example alone.

Or put even simpler: Put up or shut up.
So, the Catholic Church shouldn't preach about it's principles because it experienced a sex scandal? And the Catholic Church is the only religious organization to have had this fault? Right?

You are a victim of the media. You let the media form your opinions. I know this because you fail to mention that every other religion has had similar incidences of sexual improprieties. Study after study show that the incidence of child molestation in the Catholic Church is no more prevalent than any other religion. But because the Catholic Church is such a large media target, when it happened there, it was sensationalized. The media crucified the Church for it. But little was said about Protestant ministers abusing and molesting children. Or Rabbis. Or Muslim clerics. Why? Because it wouldn't sell. Any stain against the Catholic Church is big business for the media. And lambs like you who fall lock step with them, feed the frenzy.

I am not excusing in any way what happened in the church. The coverup was equally bad. But to be so blind as to think this is a "Catholic" problem is quite narrow minded. Do your own research. Don't let the media do your thinking for you. You might be amazed at what is really going on out there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2016, 07:25 AM
 
6,822 posts, read 3,144,642 times
Reputation: 2379
Fundamentalist ideologues want to legislate what women do with their bodies. They do not want contraception available for women. They want women to submit. Women are demonized when they become pregnant, and require food stamps. They claim to be pro-life, and nothing could be further from the truth.

They are ignorant about the female reproductive system. They seem to think if a woman is raped, she cannot get pregnant. If she does get pregnant, that means it must have been consensual sex.

They allow birth control to be decided by a Christian employer(political donor), yet that same employer has no problem with Viagra.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2016, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Sumter, SC
1,781 posts, read 1,919,199 times
Reputation: 1227
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonkonkomaNative View Post
Fundamentalist ideologues want to legislate what women do with their bodies. They do not want contraception available for women. They want women to submit. Women are demonized when they become pregnant, and require food stamps. They claim to be pro-life, and nothing could be further from the truth.

They are ignorant about the female reproductive system. They seem to think if a woman is raped, she cannot get pregnant. If she does get pregnant, that means it must have been consensual sex.

They allow birth control to be decided by a Christian employer(political donor), yet that same employer has no problem with Viagra.
Wow! What cave did you crawl out of?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2016, 08:07 AM
 
6,822 posts, read 3,144,642 times
Reputation: 2379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam4USC View Post
Wow! What cave did you crawl out of?
I opened my eyes to a marvelous day. The cave smells like fresh brewed coffee. Nothing like waking up to share morning on the pond, with the geese, cranes, hawks, owls, and turtles. In a very short while, the cave will smell like bacon. What cave did you crawl out of?

I stand by my statements, every one of them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2016, 02:13 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,070,917 times
Reputation: 2972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam4USC View Post
So, the Catholic Church shouldn't preach about it's principles because it experienced a sex scandal?
They have lost the moral ground for doing so and should be embarrassed to be doing so. There is a strong element of "Clean up your own house before running your finger checking for dust in anyone else's" at play here. If someone wishes to presume to dictate morality to others, they should at least be capable of showing their credentials to do so.

And you likely know as well as I do that "experienced a sex scandal" is only half the story. The instigated, and to some degree still do, a systematic cover up of child rape and abuse and torture, a campaign of attempts to silence victims, a refusal to pay compensations for which they were admonished to pay, a protection of the criminals involved and much more. Summarizing all that in the paltry terms of "sex scandal" is a bit like summarizing our first two world wars as "A bit of an old barney".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam4USC View Post
And the Catholic Church is the only religious organization to have had this fault? Right?
If you say so.... but I sure as hell didn't. Perhaps given I clearly have more than enough words of my own in my posts, you might consider refraining from inserting yours into my mouth too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam4USC View Post
You are a victim of the media. You let the media form your opinions.
Nice of you to make up falsehoods about me, a person you do not know at all and have never met. Nothing you say here is even remotely true however so keep your fantasies to yourself thanks. Maybe file them away with the words you want to put in my mouth, wherever you normally store all the straw you use to prop up your straw men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam4USC View Post
I know this because you fail to mention that every other religion has had similar incidences of sexual improprieties.
Except I did mention that, so you can also pocket your historical revisionism and distortions. Read my words again without distorting them this time or parsing them through the filter of what you WANT to hear to support your own narrative:

"The Churches, including the Catholic Church, who have attempted to place controls on who has sex, when, how and with whom..... have simply lost the fight. They have lost it as badly as they have lost the moral ground to even make the attempt through their own sexual indiscretions and crimes."

It is abundantly clear I was not limiting my rhetoric to Christianity there.... despite your bias compelling you to parse it and distort it otherwise. Do keep up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam4USC View Post
Study after study show that the incidence of child molestation in the Catholic Church is no more prevalent than any other religion. But because the Catholic Church is such a large media target, when it happened there, it was sensationalized.
A completely false narrative from you there. The reason the media and the public reacted as it did to the horrors perpetuated by that church has less to do with the size of the target, and every bit to do with the horrific systematic cover ups, protection of the criminals, and campaigns to silence the victims.

This "Oh leave them alone, other institutions do it too!" narrative is a propaganda move to deflect from the reasons people were as horrified as they were. It was a LOT more than merely being horrified at the rape of children as you wish to pretend. Not that the rape of children is not horrific enough and describing it as merely a "sex scandal" is itself a crass propaganda move. Bill Clinton getting oral sex off his employee is a "Sex Scandal". The systematic and long term rape and abuse of children by people in a position of high levels of authority and trust is far FAR worse than anything the phrase "sex scandal" could describe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam4USC View Post
The media crucified the Church for it.
Oh where IS my tiny little violin. I had planned to restring it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam4USC View Post
And lambs like you who fall lock step with them, feed the frenzy.
Always comical when "lamb" is used (especially falsely as you do here) as an insult by those protecting a religion who describe their own adherents as "lambs" and their savior as a "Shepard" who sees his followers as a "flock". If you are going to throw insults around, especially empty and false ones, you might want to at least choose ones that the people you are trying to protect do not self apply as labels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam4USC View Post
But to be so blind as to think this is a "Catholic" problem is quite narrow minded. Do your own research.
Take your own advice because as I said above where I was picking your words out of your mouth, I never once said or even IMPLIED it was "a catholic problem". You read what you wanted to read, heard what you wanted to hear, and then went off on a rant against something I never said, or espoused. So YOU do your own research. Start by actually READING the things you presume to reply to before going off on a merry haughty diatribe against something no one actually said or did. Don't let the media do your thinking for you. You might be amazed at what is really going on out there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2016, 07:34 AM
 
787 posts, read 298,105 times
Reputation: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
How come modern Bible believing Christians no longer care about prohibiting the use of contraceptives, like they did in the not so distant past, including those used by married men and women?
The answer to this question can be found in the deportment of Christian leadership. Where the leaders go their congregations follow. People rely upon leadership in every facet of life. A corporation can collapse because of poor leadership. A nation can fall from greatness because of corrupt leadership and church congregations can wander into sin and error if their leaders go that way.

"The parsons will dig their own graves. They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable jobs and incomes. Protestant clergy don't believe in anything except their well-being and office".
- Adolph Hitler

"If there is a decay of conscience, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the public press lacks moral discernment, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the church is degenerate and worldly, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the world loses its interest in Christianity, the pulpit is responsible for it. If Satan rules in our halls of legislation, the pulpit is responsible for it. If our politics become so corrupt that their very foundations of our government are ready to fall away, the pulpit is responsible for it."
- Charles Finney

"There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the biggest reason America is in the mess that it's in today is directly due to the apathy and indifference of the American pulpit."
- Chuck Baldwin

PERCEPTION IS REALITY.

According to PEW statistical research (often quoted by journalists in the legitimate press as well as internet news sources) the Protestant Church in America has become irrelevant to society. It has nothing at all to offer except a good show on Sunday morning and even that is becoming difficult to swallow. When society regards a religious group as being irrelevant it withers on the vine like drought stricken grapes.

For example, the leadership of at least three major denominations in America(*) have assembled themselves and declared that the Bible isn't the Word of God thus putting it on a par with every other book. It has also been declared that salvation in the name of Jesus Christ is not necessary for justification before God. This is spiritual error of a great magnitude and leads congregations into sin. The Bible IS the Word of God and the blood of Christ is the ONLY justification God will accept.

The church has assumed the form of religion, but without the power of it. The nation suffers because of it.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA, HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.
- Shanghai curse August 1937

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Presbyterian Church and Lutheran Synod have both officially denied the Bible as the exclusive inspired Word of God during national conventions. This was declared by vote of the representatives. The news was carried to my ears by persons who were in attendance at these meetings.

The Episcopalians have made no such formal declaration as far as I know, but we know them by their fruits, which have been rotten for decades. Episcopal leadership has denied the saving grace of Christ for over a half century. I know this because for a time I was personally included in the inner circles of leadership in that organization. There is an active unseen movement by Episcopal leadership to deny the necessity of salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. I was evicted from the fellowship because I refused to recant.

Last edited by Choir Loft; 03-04-2016 at 07:42 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-04-2016, 08:48 AM
 
19,952 posts, read 13,002,022 times
Reputation: 1957
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
How come modern Bible believing Christians no longer care about prohibiting the use of contraceptives, like they did in the not so distant past, including those used by married men and women?
Because they people that lived in the "not so distant past" had it wrong?

Seriously though....the Catholic Church still categorically condemns it.

I actually agree that certain methods are immoral. If a method allows the egg to be fertilized and then not implant, it is is, for all intents and purposes, an abortion-causing device. I don't mean to bring up abortion, as I know that it's not a topic that is really allowed to be discussed, but we can just say that my objections to these methods are based on my objection to abortion--that being that I believe human life begins at conception.

As for other methods, such as "barrier method", like condoms? I see no biblical prohibition on it.

I think the major reason the Catholic church is against it is because it allows sex with "no consequences". With it becoming more and common it has resulted in a lower emphasis on sexual morality among people claiming to be Christians.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top