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Old 03-06-2016, 10:31 PM
 
37,587 posts, read 25,288,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenWhiteBlue View Post
"Universally agreed????
It certainly is NOT "universally agreed". Where do you get such a preposterous, baseless, and patently false idea from?
Since it seems to be a clear teaching of the Bible that the unbaptized do not go to heaven, it is a most ancient Christian belief that unbaptized infants are among those who do not go to heaven.
Here is Gregory Nazianus, preaching at Constantinople in AD 381:
"It will happen, I believe . . . that those last mentioned [infants dying without baptism] will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked. . . . For from the fact that one does not merit punishment it does not follow that one is worthy of being honored, any more than it follows that one who is not worthy of a certain honor deserves on that account to be punished."
Augustine, writing 40 years later, went further, and said that the unbaptized -- including infants -- went to hell.
Thomas Aquinas (early 13th Century) rejected this harsh view, and while he did not say that unbaptized infants went to heaven, he said they did not receive the torments of the damned, but instead had natural (as opposed to supernatural) happiness available to them. This is the idea of "limbo", which is a theological opinion that has been accepted by millions for centuries. Even now, the question is not settled; note, for example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church's statement that "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
Catch that? The largest branch of Christianity says that the best we can do is hope that unbaptized babies go to heaven -- be we cannot be SURE of that.
For you to claim on your own ignorant authority that "it is already unanimously agreed" (Ha!!! Just what do you think "unanimously" means, anyway??????) is utter nonsense.
::Sigh::
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:00 AM
 
787 posts, read 297,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monastic555 View Post
It's already unanimously agreed that newborn babies who die at birth go to Heaven. But since they are not Christians at all, they are still UNsaved. So doesn't that mean that the UNsaved go to Heaven? Granted, the point has been made that the babies go to Heaven because they are innocent. But that point is totally wrong because Romans 3:23 states unequivocally that "ALL have sin." ALL obviously includes those babies.

The argument for sinful babies is based upon medieval designs by the Catholic Church to exact contributions from the child's relatives and to insure the additional membership of the newborn into its congregation. During the reformation, the idea was adopted by Calvinists to justify their doctrine of Total Depravity of man upon which hangs most of their doctrine. It has nothing to do with the Bible. It is not of God. It is false. Both the Catholic and Calvinist position are heretical. Consider Mosaic law for the answer.

The Bible states that human nature was corrupted by the fall. The story can be read in Genesis chapter 3. It is clearly the nature of humankind to sin, BUT no one is condemned because of the possibility of committed sin.(*) The ideal example of this is a new born child. Although it has the potential to be a great athlete, world leader, terrible criminal or a saint, the baby in actual fact has not yet done anything. Therefore it is free of the stain of sin. Men are not jailed for crimes they do not commit and God does not and can not sentence a child to hell who has committed no sin.

Consider the book of Leviticus. In this book are written the duties of sacrificial offerings and freewill offerings and offerings of gratitude. The method of offering a sacrifice for sin is clearly set down in Mosaic law. This was a temporary act until the death of Christ upon the cross made the sacrifice permanent. But there are all manner of prescribed offerings for other things too.

The offering for the birth of a child was an offering of gratitude. THERE IS NO PRESCRIBED SIN OFFERING FOR THE BIRTH OF A BABY. Therefore, according to Mosaic law a new born baby is considered BY GOD to be free of sin (for the simple reason that it hasn't done anything).

Again, the doctrine that a child was guilty of sin was added by the church centuries after Christ ascended into heaven. It is not in agreement with Mosaic law and therefore is not of God. I invite the reader to study the book of Leviticus to satisfy his or her own need to understand divine justice.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(*) If one can be condemned for the possibility/potential to sin, then even Christ would be guilty. If a man is totally depraved, then it is totally impossible for him to be saved by any means or method at all - INCLUDING acts of God. "Totally depraved" means total - no exceptions. It's not Biblical of course, but it does provide the basis for heresy in the church.

Last edited by Choir Loft; 03-07-2016 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:07 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,826,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monastic555 View Post
It's already unanimously agreed that newborn babies who die at birth go to Heaven. But since they are not Christians at all, they are still UNsaved. So doesn't that mean that the UNsaved go to Heaven? Granted, the point has been made that the babies go to Heaven because they are innocent. But that point is totally wrong because Romans 3:23 states unequivocally that "ALL have sin." ALL obviously includes those babies.
Correct ... your last sentence is based from God's Word the Bible which is the truth.

Thus the sentence "babies go to Heaven because they are innocent" is not the truth because God reveals original sin:
"that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." Genesis 6:5

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Psalm 51:5
and Jesus confirms original sin in John 3:6 ... pick your translation:
KJV
That which is born of the flesh is flesh;

NIV
Flesh gives birth to flesh,
Romans 8:7 God reveals the natural state of the human mind without faith
NIV
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to Godís law, nor can it do so.

KJV
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Hebrews 11:6 God reveals it's >>> faith <<< not intentionally violating any of God's commandments
NIV
And without faith it is impossible to please God,

KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him:
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:14 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,826,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
The argument for sinful babies is based upon medieval designs by the Catholic Church to exact contributions from the child's relatives and to insure the additional membership of the newborn into its congregation.
Right ... you're hollering against God.
Original sin:
Genesis 6:5
"that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time."

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

John 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh,

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to Godís law, nor can it do so.

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Old 03-07-2016, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,920 posts, read 4,946,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Right ... you're hollering against God.
Original sin:
Genesis 6:5
"that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time."

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

John 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh,

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

Your god tortures children in hell for eternity? Is that what you are saying?
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Old 03-07-2016, 11:11 AM
 
1,422 posts, read 395,048 times
Reputation: 783
Where the Bible is silent we should be also. ALL are born in the inherited sin of Adam and spiritually dead including babies. As usual a thousand different opinions run the gamut and mean nothing. Our only hope lies in the fact that the unborn or children below the age of accountability will fall into the arms of a merciful and loving God who we know will do the right thing. As for that "right thing" not one of us knows what that might be.
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,281 posts, read 20,922,051 times
Reputation: 9966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
ALL are born in the inherited sin of Adam and spiritually dead including babies.
But what, exactly, do you see that as meaning? "In sin" can be interpreted in several ways. Do you believe that babies are born guilty of something they never did? Or do you believe they are born predisposed to being sinners?
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,281 posts, read 20,922,051 times
Reputation: 9966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
ALL are born in the inherited sin of Adam and spiritually dead including babies.
But what, exactly, do you see that as meaning? "In sin" can be interpreted in several ways. Do you believe that babies are born guilty of something they never did? Or do you believe that our natural state is one in which we are predisposed to sin?
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Old 03-07-2016, 02:00 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,794,650 times
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All have sin, all were born with sin, because sin is not just something you do, it's a principality inherited in the fall. But not all have committed sin (like babies) that they are held accountable for. The "age of accountability" begins when they know the difference between yes (obedience to parent) and no (disobedience to parent), the parent being the first tutor and governor put over them. Peace
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Old 03-07-2016, 02:26 PM
 
37,587 posts, read 25,288,180 times
Reputation: 5860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
ALL are born in the inherited sin of Adam and spiritually dead including babies.
Preposterous. Sin is not a genetic disease. It is not a virus. It is not some magical blemish on our Soul. It is simply a state of ignorance that predisposes us to "miss the mark"- be wrong! Of course babies are ignorant but until they learn to distinguish among their behaviors they cannot "miss the mark." They don't even know what a mark is or how to try and hit it. All Adam and Eve did was learn the first lesson we ALL must learn in life - the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. God was not angry about our learning our first lesson. The Bible chronicles the evolution of our learning many, many more lessons.
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