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Old 03-07-2016, 01:33 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,816,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
Where the Bible is silent we should be also. ALL are born in the inherited sin of Adam and spiritually dead including babies. As usual a thousand different opinions run the gamut and mean nothing. Our only hope lies in the fact that the unborn or children below the age of accountability will fall into the arms of a merciful and loving God who we know will do the right thing. As for that "right thing" not one of us knows what that might be.
I would agree if it were not for "children below the age of accountability" .... the law gives no exceptions as God revealed:
Romans 3:10-12 (which is quoting Scripture Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20)
As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good, not even one.”
Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way;

In other words "the age of accountability" rational is not being silent but rather the sinful desire to peer into the Judges Domain to reason with humanistic concept of fairness.
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Old 03-07-2016, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,889,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
All have sin, all were born with sin, because sin is not just something you do, it's a principality inherited in the fall.
You know, this sounds a lot like some kind of a stock answer you were taught to say. Of course, sin is something you do. Any English dictionary in the world will define it in essentially the same way. You sin when you knowingly violate one of God's laws or a moral principle you believe to be true. Being "in sin" doesn't mean a darned thing unless you can explain it as something other than a "principality inherited in the fall," whatever that's supposed to mean.

Quote:
But not all have committed sin (like babies) that they are held accountable for. The "age of accountability" begins when they know the difference between yes (obedience to parent) and no (disobedience to parent), the parent being the first tutor and governor put over them. Peace
First off, God doesn't hold people accountable for other people's sins. And if a person hasn't committed a sin, he's innocent. It is no more complicated than that. Babies haven't committed any sins, so they are innocent in God's eyes, regardless of whether they are predisposed to sin or not.

Secondly, no two-year-old has reached the age at which God is going to hold him responsibility for doing something when his mother is frantically yelling, "No!" If the child has been told repeatedly not to do something and is punished every time he continued to do it, he may be at an age where he is starting to realize that pretty soon, Mama's going to get mad, so I better stop. He may understand that certain behaviors will result in his being punished, but so does the family dog.
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Old 03-07-2016, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,296 posts, read 4,249,941 times
Reputation: 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
You know, this sounds a lot like some kind of a stock answer you were taught to say. Of course, sin is something you do. Any English dictionary in the world will define it in essentially the same way. You sin when you knowingly violate one of God's laws or a moral principle you believe to be true. Being "in sin" doesn't mean a darned thing unless you can explain it as something other than a "principality inherited in the fall," whatever that's supposed to mean.

First off, God doesn't hold people accountable for other people's sins. And if a person hasn't committed a sin, he's innocent. It is no more complicated than that. Babies haven't committed any sins, so they are innocent in God's eyes, regardless of whether they are predisposed to sin or not.

Secondly, no two-year-old has reached the age at which God is going to hold him responsibility for doing something when his mother is frantically yelling, "No!" If the child has been told repeatedly not to do something and is punished every time he continued to do it, he may be at an age where he is starting to realize that pretty soon, Mama's going to get mad, so I better stop. He may understand that certain behaviors will result in his being punished, but so does the family dog.




You eat, you relieve yourself with corruption, you bleed, you age and you are going to die, and that is as simple as it gets.

Some have a chance to be more than a beast if they can be reborn, or should I say,'' Born again.''


People live and people die, but maybe something can happen in between that makes them a new creature who isn't already cursed with death, and returning to dust knowing nothing.
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Old 03-07-2016, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,889,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
You eat, you relieve yourself with corruption, you bleed, you age and you are going to die, and that is as simple as it gets.

Some have a chance to be more than a beast if they can be reborn, or should I say,'' Born again.''


People live and people die, but maybe something can happen in between that makes them a new creature who isn't already cursed with death, and returning to dust knowing nothing.
I don't disagree with any of what you've said, but I don't see how it pertains to my post to Rbbi1.
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Old 03-07-2016, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,802 posts, read 2,156,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monastic555 View Post
It's already unanimously agreed that newborn babies who die at birth go to Heaven. But since they are not Christians at all, they are still UNsaved. So doesn't that mean that the UNsaved go to Heaven? Granted, the point has been made that the babies go to Heaven because they are innocent. But that point is totally wrong because Romans 3:23 states unequivocally that "ALL have sin." ALL obviously includes those babies.
I personally believe that the soul within that infant ( OP gave as example) who happens to not survive ( regardless of reasons)..will go right back into heavenly realm and be re-deployed later...So no, "Innocents" will never be declared "Unsaved".....

Human's have fragility ..so why should innocents be held accountable to that???

Whomever suggests that have absolutely no understanding of how Souls move...Some souls, no matter how evil..not always get sent to "HE$$"..but get sent back to L>E>A>R>N!! ..because I don't care how reverent some talks..Does NOT necessarily indicate whats in their hearts ( higher powers KNOW and Humans often get hoodwinked!! .." TALK IS CHEAP"!!

Guess I'm an eternal optomist..but Souls get a chance to learn..gain compassion..try to walk the talk...BUT having no idea where the LINE is..I tend to think..that with each earthly adventure "Something is learned"..So eventually the Soul's will learn whatever "GOD" intended....

As I said..I'm an eternal Optimist
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Old 03-07-2016, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,296 posts, read 4,249,941 times
Reputation: 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I don't disagree with any of what you've said, but I don't see how it pertains to my post to Rbbi1.
You said that a person who has not committed sin is innocent and I would disagree with you on this, and the ultimate outcome is the proof of it.


Christians will claim that Jesus was sinless but Jesus said,'' Why call me good? None is good but the father.''


Ezekiel prophesied of the coming prince and he not only makes sacrifices for the sins of the nation but for all flesh, and Ezekiel 45 is the only place in the bible where a Christian could make such a bold statement as to say that Jesus was all the sacrifices because of the fact that you have to move Yom Kippur and Shavuot, and Sukkot to Nisan 14th, where you could actually say that all the sacrifices happened on one single day.


But where you find the prince keeping all the holy days on Nisan 14 sacrificing all the sacrifices in order to achieve all the sacrifices in one single day, you also find the Messiah sacrificing not only for the nation, but for himself.


Ezekiel 45


21In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. 22And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.








I mean to say that no flesh is innocent, and even where it comes to Jesus being all the sacrifices on a single day, he also sacrifices for himself, because the flesh is already condemned.
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Old 03-07-2016, 07:58 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,784,110 times
Reputation: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
You know, this sounds a lot like some kind of a stock answer you were taught to say. Of course, sin is something you do. Any English dictionary in the world will define it in essentially the same way. You sin when you knowingly violate one of God's laws or a moral principle you believe to be true. Being "in sin" doesn't mean a darned thing unless you can explain it as something other than a "principality inherited in the fall," whatever that's supposed to mean.

First off, God doesn't hold people accountable for other people's sins. And if a person hasn't committed a sin, he's innocent. It is no more complicated than that. Babies haven't committed any sins, so they are innocent in God's eyes, regardless of whether they are predisposed to sin or not.

Secondly, no two-year-old has reached the age at which God is going to hold him responsibility for doing something when his mother is frantically yelling, "No!" If the child has been told repeatedly not to do something and is punished every time he continued to do it, he may be at an age where he is starting to realize that pretty soon, Mama's going to get mad, so I better stop. He may understand that certain behaviors will result in his being punished, but so does the family dog.


I was taught to say it. The LORD taught me it. Or why do you THINK Cain killed Abel after the fall? Could it be because Satan was a murderer from the beginning?


I don't what you're referring to with the first sentence in paragraph two. I didn't say anything about that.


I didn't say G-d was going to hold the two year old accountable, I said the age of accountability BEGINS when you know right from wrong, and if that's at two when mama has taught repeatedly no means no, and the child still does it, then it's accountable TO MAMA, because she is one of the two tutors and governors set over the child. It's a basic principle. The oil flows from the head down to the feet. Peace
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,889,434 times
Reputation: 9963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
You said that a person who has not committed sin is innocent and I would disagree with you on this, and the ultimate outcome is the proof of it.

I mean to say that no flesh is innocent, and even where it comes to Jesus being all the sacrifices on a single day, he also sacrifices for himself, because the flesh is already condemned.
That's a very depressing view to have of life, Hannibal. I'm glad it's not mine, but I'm not going to try to change your mind. I know it would be as pointless as if you were to try to change mine.
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,889,434 times
Reputation: 9963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
I was taught to say it. The LORD taught me it.
Funny how He teaches us each different things.

Quote:
Or why do you THINK Cain killed Abel after the fall?
Why do I think Cain killed Abel? Well, I'd say it was because he was a selfish man with no love for His brother or for God.

Quote:
Could it be because Satan was a murderer from the beginning?
You lost me here, I'm afraid.

Quote:
I don't what you're referring to with the first sentence in paragraph two. I didn't say anything about that.
To me, it sounds as if you believe all mankind (including newborn babies) bear the guilt Adam incurred by disobeying God. I believe that Jesus Christ atoned for Adam's sin; therefore, God does not holding anyone else accountable for it.

Quote:
I didn't say G-d was going to hold the two year old accountable...
But if the two-year-old is guilty, he should be held accountable.

Quote:
I said the age of accountability BEGINS when you know right from wrong, and if that's at two when mama has taught repeatedly no means no, and the child still does it, then it's accountable TO MAMA, because she is one of the two tutors and governors set over the child. It's a basic principle.
As I said before, fearing negative consequences is something a dog can do. Being capable of understanding God's commandments and making a conscious choice as to whether to obey them or not is another matter, in my opinion.
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,889,434 times
Reputation: 9963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndarn View Post
I personally believe that the soul within that infant ( OP gave as example) who happens to not survive ( regardless of reasons)..will go right back into heavenly realm and be re-deployed later...So no, "Innocents" will never be declared "Unsaved".....

Human's have fragility ..so why should innocents be held accountable to that???

Whomever suggests that have absolutely no understanding of how Souls move...Some souls, no matter how evil..not always get sent to "HE$$"..but get sent back to L>E>A>R>N!! ..because I don't care how reverent some talks..Does NOT necessarily indicate whats in their hearts ( higher powers KNOW and Humans often get hoodwinked!! .." TALK IS CHEAP"!!

Guess I'm an eternal optomist..but Souls get a chance to learn..gain compassion..try to walk the talk...BUT having no idea where the LINE is..I tend to think..that with each earthly adventure "Something is learned"..So eventually the Soul's will learn whatever "GOD" intended....

As I said..I'm an eternal Optimist
You're not only an eternal optimist, you clearly understand God's love.
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