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Old 03-10-2016, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,578 posts, read 5,113,105 times
Reputation: 3914

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
Sorry, but this simply isn't true. Paul was actively a Jew, He was just a Jew who knew His Messiah. Better read Acts again. Peace
Except Paul was not considered a good Jew by the Jerusalem Christians under James. That was why there was conflict between them. It was really the point of James' letter in refuting some of Paul's "free" religion.

The SBC is a "free grace" denomination following Paul. The hallmarks of free grace are:

Quote:
all "free grace" teachers do hold fundamentally to a no-lordship viewpoint. But their teaching goes much further than that. Having started with the tenet that one may receive Christ as Savior and not as Lord, they then interpret the whole New Testament in that light. This has led to an interpretation of many New Testament passages which departs from the historic understanding of these texts. Among their beliefs are the following:
  • Repentance is never to be included as part of the gospel message.
  • One may receive Christ as Savior, yet reject Him as Lord. That is, one may receive Christ by faith alone ("intellectual assent" is the definition some of them affirm), yet do so with ongoing rebellion--accepting the gift while shaking a fist at the giver. God does not necessarily change the heart (to grant a love for Christ, or even a receptivity to Him) when He saves someone.
  • True Christians will not necessarily evidence their faith by works (or "fruit"). In fact, a true Christian may never show any evidence of the new birth.
  • True Christians will not necessarily persevere in the faith. In fact, a true Christian may receive Jesus as Savior, later become intellectually unconvinced of the gospel, denounce Christ and become an atheist; however, because of that one human decision made at one point in time, he is still considered to be saved. For instance, Joseph Dillow, in The Reign of the Sevant Kings, says, "It is possible for a truly born-again person to fall away from the faith and cease believing." (p.199). True Christians may fall away completely from the faith and still be saved. God in no way grants them perseverance, or sustains them in their faith.
https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...freegrace.html

James was not. He was more like his brother in that WORKS were EQUALLY important. It's summed up in James 2:14-26 and is called the "lordship" doctrine. If one is saved they fall under the lordship of Christ and perform the works to which God has called them. Most parables of Jesus supports the lordship doctrine.

Quote:
The word save occurs five times in James (1.21; 2:14; 4:12; 5:15, 20). In none of the four uses outside of our passage is eternal salvation in view. In his epistle James uses the word save to refer to deliverance from the death-dealing consequences of sin (cf. 1:15,21). A believer whose faith is not accompanied by works will not be saved from the consequences of his sinful behavior. He or she will experience difficulties which God sends. The purpose of these difficulties is to turn the believer back to the Lord.
same source

I, personally, have experienced the Hound of Heaven chasing after me when I tried to run from God, even praying "God leave me alone." It doesn't work that way. Once one becomes His child, there is no escape from serving Him.

Think that Paul and James were not in conflict? Read Acts 21 where Paul is called before James and the Jerusalem christians who demand that he perform a Nazarite vow and pay for that of four other men. Paul was NOT opposed to works in that he had circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:3), so obviously some works, even just outward manifestations, was acceptable.

James recorded ideas that "faith without works is dead" means that faith has no animating power outside of works. Even Paul had some concept of that as he wrote in Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Not a word in their about sitting around waiting for Christ's glorious return. God prepared good works beforehand that the followers of Christ might walk in them.

I stick with "lordship" doctrine, and the fact that I have attempted to leave it (unsuccessfully) is my own inner testimony to Christ's demands for discipleship.

My argument would be that James saw how misleading Paul's basic message was. Grace occurs when we are drawn by the Holy Spirit--in that it is not our works. But there simply are no Christ followers who will not be under conviction to perform the acts of charity Jesus taught.

Quote:
"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?"
Matt 25:37-38

A Christ follower doesn't even recognize they are doing the works of Christ--and the parable goes on to point out (regardless of religion, IMO) that those who aren't disciples won't even recognize when they "miss the mark." And that has to be aimed at religious folks because ALL sinners recognize they aren't in the mix when standing before God. Jesus' whole point in dividing up HIS PROCLAIMED FOLLOWERS is to show that there are both sheep and goats in the mix.

A "true" follower knows he/she cannot escape the works God prepared beforehand for Christ's followers. Paul, at best, was leading Gentile christians down a path of irresponsibility with regard to actually serving Christ on this earth. James recognized it, and called him to task about it.

Paul won the long term battle, however. Look at your own largest Protestant denomination in the world. They glorify "free grace" while minimizing any requirement that good works are the manifestation of true faith. It has made the denomination large, and taken all spiritual power out from under its wings.
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Old 03-10-2016, 06:48 PM
 
1,401 posts, read 390,349 times
Reputation: 781
The TEN were given to Moses and the Jews who promised to keep them all and promptly broke every one of them, because we cannot keep them. Jesus nailed them to the cross and Christians today are no longer bound by them. God hasn't changed His mind on sin, just given us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.......which is superior to laws we don't keep. I invite all to inspect your driving habits when you see a speed limit sign. Laws perfect or protect no one.....gun laws another example.

Jesus plainly tells the whole world they aren't under the law but folks just love to take pride in their works and ignore it......... Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
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Old 03-10-2016, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,266 posts, read 4,233,174 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
The TEN were given to Moses and the Jews who promised to keep them all and promptly broke every one of them, because we cannot keep them. Jesus nailed them to the cross and Christians today are no longer bound by them. God hasn't changed His mind on sin, just given us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.......which is superior to laws we don't keep. I invite all to inspect your driving habits when you see a speed limit sign. Laws perfect or protect no one.....gun laws another example.

Jesus plainly tells the whole world they aren't under the law but folks just love to take pride in their works and ignore it......... Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!


Jesus said no such thing.


Jesus said that whoever keeps the least of the laws of Moses and teaches others to keep the laws of Moses will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


If Jesus or any of the disciples came teaching Jews that the law was ended and that they didn't have to follow the laws of Moses, then Jesus and his disciples are deserving a sinners death, worthy of a sinners death and they would be false prophets.


Liars were paid to tell the great lie everybody loves to tell. Liars paid to legally witness against Stephen that Stephen was teaching Jews to abandon the law, and if that is what Stephen was teaching, then by the law he needs to be killed, but if liars had to be paid, it means Stephen was teaching no such thing.


Liars were telling the same lie against Paul and Paul had to make sacrifices just to prove the liars were liars and that he didn't ever teach Jews not to keep the law, and that he himself continued keeping the laws of Moses. He was brought into court for these lies and he had to prove his innocence which he did, but if he would have not proved his innocence, then he would just be another sinner worthy of death and another false prophet.


So which is it?


Paul is a two faced liar that contradicts Jesus and says one thing but does another to save his own life?


Did Paul teach Jews not to keep the law, and was Paul lying when he proved that he never stopped keeping the law?




Is this all lies Cruiser?




Acts 21~ Paul was informed of the lies being spoken of him, and then proves his innocence, but was he really guilty cruiser?


20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, Whereof they were informed of thee, concerning thee, ARE NOTHING!{LIES}; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
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