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Old 03-11-2016, 11:16 PM
Status: "More than chromosomes." (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Anderson, IN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

Gal. 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Jesus came into the world to die for the sins of the world as the Scriptures plainly state. If you have never believed that Christ died for your sins you remain under condemnation and eternal separation from God is in your future.
Not a very Christ-centered response, Mike. Quite arrogant, really. To presume to know the state of the soul of another or what its ultimate fate will be. Remember the story about logs and the splinters.
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Old 03-11-2016, 11:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geekigurl View Post
Not a very Christ-centered response, Mike. Quite arrogant, really. To presume to know the state of the soul of another or what its ultimate fate will be. Remember the story about logs and the splinters.
On the contrary. It is Christ centered and Biblical. People want to hear what tickles their ears instead of the truth. The truth is that the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself made it very plain that many will not be saved.

This applies to everyone. If you do not believe that Jesus died for your sins then you quite simply are not saved, and you remain under condemnation.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . 46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

We are all born under condemnation. The only way the condemnation is removed is by accepting the finished redemptive work of Jesus on the cross. And that involves recognizing that Jesus died for your sins.

Last edited by Mike555; 03-12-2016 at 12:06 AM..
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Old 03-12-2016, 12:01 AM
Status: "Phlegmatic." (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
23,451 posts, read 12,130,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
On the contrary. It is Christ centered and Biblical. People want to hear what tickles their ears instead of the truth. The truth is that the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself made it very plain that many will not be saved.

This applies to everyone. If you do not believe that Jesus died for your sins then you quite simply are not saved, and you remain under condemnation.
Big whoop-dee-do.

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Old 03-12-2016, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,627 posts, read 5,134,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
On the contrary. It is Christ centered and Biblical. People want to hear what tickles their ears instead of the truth. The truth is that the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself made it very plain that many will not be saved.

This applies to everyone. If you do not believe that Jesus died for your sins then you quite simply are not saved, and you remain under condemnation.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . 46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

We are all born under condemnation. The only way the condemnation is removed is by accepting the finished redemptive work of Jesus on the cross. And that involves recognizing that Jesus died for your sins.
Unfortunately, you haven't quoted Matthew 25--because Jesus quite clearly states the division between the sheep and the goats are their "works!" Oh, my!! WORKS!!!

Quote:
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me
Matt 25:41-45

You picked the wrong verses to try to tell people they are going to hell for not "believing" in Jesus. Nowhere in Matthew 25 does "belief" enter into the picture. The earliest writings about Jesus have little to do with "belief." It is only with John, who probably was heavily influenced by Paul, that we find Jesus (a quite different Jesus from the Synoptic gospels) say very much about faith.

He talks about harvesters in the field, building a house on a rock rather than sand, staying prepared with oil in the lamps, and on and on. Always about actions that people must be taking. And at the end of Matthew He sums it up in speaking about how God will judge us--He doesn't say a word about whether or not we "believed," just whether we fed, clothed and visited the "least" of these. Wouldn't that be the disenfranchised people whom you wish to leave out in the cold over "belief?" Even in the Lord's prayer He teaches us to forgive those who trespass against us (doing something) in order that we might be forgiven.

Strange that in His first and most powerful message, The Sermon on the Mount, He never talks about belief. He talks about BEING and DOING but not believing. He speaks of believing when we pray, but prayer is another form of DOING. In Mark He told the ruler of the synagogue to believe (that his daughter wasn't dead) but based on the commotion going on around the ruler's house, it doesn't appear anyone really believed. But that was okay--Jesus was all about DOING it Himself.

How about those babies that die without accepting Jesus, Mike? Are they going to hell? If not, can you provide any verse of Scripture where anyone in the NT says they won't? Your fundamental buddies make up a story about "age of accountability" but where is that in the Bible? Must be in there somewhere or you've just made up a doctrine to make the god you proclaim not look so--well god-awful!!

Is there an element of belief in coming to Christ Jesus? Of course, but it is neither the be all nor end all.
Men say that when they know, they will do; Jesus says that when they do, they will know--maybe. Those righteous people--they didn't even recognize when they were DOING the right thing. It was just a part of their own spirit.

The seeds of truth sprout in the soil of obedience--and part of obeying is not judging who or who will not be saved by God. It's a presumption that the Pharisees had as they faced Jesus. THEY, in their opinion, knew who would find salvation. The same presumption is prominent among "bible-believers," even today, proving that Jesus was right about Scripture--it would never pass away--because it has become a weapon to beat over the heads of those who are downcast, trodden, looked down upon, thought different, just like the OP has faced in her life from "godly" people.

You don't know your Bible nearly as well as you think you do, since you keep using it to beat people down rather than lift up Jesus.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 03-12-2016 at 01:04 AM..
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Old 03-12-2016, 01:42 AM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
2,804 posts, read 1,232,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Don't understand something.
Okay, I can see being concerned about sinning because you personally don't want to defy God's word and want to go to heaven (although there are apparently a bunch of loopholes around this anyway).

Why do you care if anyone else sins? Why is that so important?

And if the sin is just as much of a sin in the mind as it is if you actually act on it, how can you possibly legislate it away?
The why can come from love. If you have a loved one in an addiction you want them to stop hurting themselves. Yet too often the concern is really veiled judgement.

Legislating sin is fruitless. Better to spend time building others up. We each have work to do here. God commanded that we labor. When we fight each other we distract and disallow progress. God has a plan for each of us. Try to drown out the noise from the false prophets. Find what gods plan is for you. If you don't know you can pray or look for something to make better. Love one another and offer the other cheek.
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Old 03-12-2016, 04:39 AM
 
1,498 posts, read 615,226 times
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Lovely thread ppl. Thank you for an interesting read this morning.

I'm with Rabi1 on sexual love (eros), either hetero or LGBT, with respect how God made it and us. It is a flesh thing, that's where it starts and is driven from. It's amazing that it should be made that way, and yet there is also the need to be spiritually fixed, to have the mind of Christ. And so we have these opposites in us, just like it was meant to be. Nothing like a challenge.

And if we put on Christ, we will absorb and leak Agape love, to ours and others betterment.
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Old 03-12-2016, 08:27 AM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,798,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Christianity has it wrong.
We are not broken.
We are not fallen.
We are not flawed.
We are simply fragile.
We are beautifully distractible.


Christianity has it WRONG--YOU are not BROKEN


Sorry it took me so long to reply to you, but I've been busy with family, and haven't had a lot of time to read.

This may seem blunt, but I would do you no service to sugar coat it. I read some of the articles from the site above, and IMO they should just put a banner up that says, "COME HERE TO LEARN HOW TO PARTAKE OF THE SINS OF THE NICOLAITIANS!"

That's it, in a nutshell, and I'm sure in today's society, they'll do quite well, become quite large, get rich via as many people as they can by selling "cold", and come under the greater judgment of a leader who leads people into the ditch.

You know Paul talked about the race he was running, and I don't think most people take that to heart. In a foot race, there are rules, and there are no shortcuts allowed.

In a race, it would not be advantageous to take on as much extra pack as you can, as it would only slow you down and tire you out faster, and likely make you lose the race.

By the same token, you would be disqualified if you took your shoes and your clothes off, mid race, and ran screaming naked. The race we are in, is no different. You can't ADD TO OR TAKE AWAY from anything that's required of you, and expect to win the race. Peace

Last edited by Rbbi1; 03-12-2016 at 08:37 AM..
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Old 03-12-2016, 08:51 AM
 
17,844 posts, read 8,918,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You don't know your Bible nearly as well as you think you do, since you keep using it to beat people down rather than lift up Jesus.

He reads the menu given him but fails to enjoy the banquet with friends.

It's the mindset of an exclusivist - that shuts the door in the face of another.
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:23 AM
 
20,324 posts, read 15,687,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Unfortunately, you haven't quoted Matthew 25--because Jesus quite clearly states the division between the sheep and the goats are their "works!" Oh, my!! WORKS!!!

Matt 25:41-45

You picked the wrong verses to try to tell people they are going to hell for not "believing" in Jesus. Nowhere in Matthew 25 does "belief" enter into the picture. The earliest writings about Jesus have little to do with "belief." It is only with John, who probably was heavily influenced by Paul, that we find Jesus (a quite different Jesus from the Synoptic gospels) say very much about faith.

He talks about harvesters in the field, building a house on a rock rather than sand, staying prepared with oil in the lamps, and on and on. Always about actions that people must be taking. And at the end of Matthew He sums it up in speaking about how God will judge us--He doesn't say a word about whether or not we "believed," just whether we fed, clothed and visited the "least" of these. Wouldn't that be the disenfranchised people whom you wish to leave out in the cold over "belief?" Even in the Lord's prayer He teaches us to forgive those who trespass against us (doing something) in order that we might be forgiven.

Strange that in His first and most powerful message, The Sermon on the Mount, He never talks about belief. He talks about BEING and DOING but not believing. He speaks of believing when we pray, but prayer is another form of DOING. In Mark He told the ruler of the synagogue to believe (that his daughter wasn't dead) but based on the commotion going on around the ruler's house, it doesn't appear anyone really believed. But that was okay--Jesus was all about DOING it Himself.

How about those babies that die without accepting Jesus, Mike? Are they going to hell? If not, can you provide any verse of Scripture where anyone in the NT says they won't? Your fundamental buddies make up a story about "age of accountability" but where is that in the Bible? Must be in there somewhere or you've just made up a doctrine to make the god you proclaim not look so--well god-awful!!

Is there an element of belief in coming to Christ Jesus? Of course, but it is neither the be all nor end all.
Men say that when they know, they will do; Jesus says that when they do, they will know--maybe. Those righteous people--they didn't even recognize when they were DOING the right thing. It was just a part of their own spirit.

The seeds of truth sprout in the soil of obedience--and part of obeying is not judging who or who will not be saved by God. It's a presumption that the Pharisees had as they faced Jesus. THEY, in their opinion, knew who would find salvation. The same presumption is prominent among "bible-believers," even today, proving that Jesus was right about Scripture--it would never pass away--because it has become a weapon to beat over the heads of those who are downcast, trodden, looked down upon, thought different, just like the OP has faced in her life from "godly" people.

You don't know your Bible nearly as well as you think you do, since you keep using it to beat people down rather than lift up Jesus.
Everyone, whether believer or unbeliever is judged for his works. For believers the issue regarding works relates to rewards both in the Millennial kingdom and in eternity (1 Cor. 3:12-15). For unbelievers the issue concerning works is as follows.

It is only by the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ having been imputed to those who believe in His finished redemptive work on the cross that anyone obtains eternal life. We can't obtain eternal life by our own imperfect righteousness. The unbeliever's deeds or works cannot save him. If a person dies without having received Jesus as Savior, then at the judgment, whether it be the judgment of the nations when Jesus returns at the end of Tribulation (Matthew 25:31-46) to judge the Tribulational survivors, or at the great white throne judgment at the end of the Millennium where all other unbelievers will be judged (Revelation 20:11-15), the works of the unbeliever, having been produced by his imperfect human righteousness will be the basis for his condemnation. In having rejected the finished work of Christ on the cross and therefore not having received the righteousness of Jesus, the unbeliever by default has only his own works which were produced by his own imperfect righteousness to stand on. And so he remains under condemnation forever.

In Matthew 25:31-46, it is Tribulational survivors who are being addressed. In the Tribulation, because of the increased lawlessness at that time (Matthew 24:12) most people's love will grow cold. Therefore, during the Tribulation, a believer in Jesus Christ will be characterized by his attitude toward, and willingness to help the Jews. On the other hand, the unbeliever will be characterized by his unwillingness to help the Jews. Having rejected Jesus Christ as Savor, the Tribulational unbeliever will be judged at the judgment of the nations and sentenced to eternal punishment.

As for babies who die without receiving Jesus as Savior, or for that matter, anyone, regardless of age, who because of severe mental retardation, dies without having been able to understand the issue, they are automatically saved because of Jesus' finished work on the cross. Since God has made a person's volition with regard to Jesus the issue in salvation, it would be unfair for God to leave in condemnation anyone who simply cannot understand the issue. When a person, at whatever his age, first becomes aware that some kind of a Supreme Being must exist, he becomes accountable to God for his attitude regarding that awareness. If that person has positive volition at that point, then God will ensure that he has an opportunity to hear the gospel message concerning Christ Jesus so that he can either receive Jesus as Savior or reject Him. But for any person who dies never having had the mental capability to come to an awareness of the existence of God (a baby or anyone of any age who lacks mental capacity) his condemnation is lifted and he will go to be with the Lord.

For everyone who has come to the point of 'God consciousness,' the issue with regard to obtaining eternal life, in being delivered from the penalty of sin which is eternal separation from God is whether or not you have believed in Jesus; whether or not you have placed your faith in Him and Him alone for eternal life. Your works have nothing whatsoever to do with being saved from eternal separation from God.

Your works after having been saved are the basis for eternal rewards. God expects the believer to produce good works, but those works have nothing to do with receiving the righteousness of Jesus which is credited to the account of anyone who has simply placed his faith in Christ Jesus.

If you have never simply trusted in Jesus Christ alone, realizing your total inability to do anything to save yourself, to earn or merit eternal life through your own efforts, then you have not been saved, and you remain under condemnation. Eternal salvation, deliverance from the penalty of sin which is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire, is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. Not by our works.

Last edited by Mike555; 03-12-2016 at 09:38 AM..
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:54 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

1.Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
Rashi's Commentary:

Who would have believed our report: So will the nations say to one another, Were we to hear from others what we see, it would be unbelievable.

the arm of the Lord: like this, with greatness and glory, to whom was it revealed until now?
2.And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
Rashi's Commentary:

And he came up like a sapling before it: This people, before this greatness came to it, was a very humble people, and it came up by itself like a sapling of the saplings of the trees.

and like a root: he came up from dry land.

neither form: had he in the beginning, nor comeliness.

and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?: And when we saw him from the beginning without an appearance, how could we desire him?

Now shall we desire him?: This is a question.
3.Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
Rashi's Commentary:

Despised and rejected by men: was he. So is the custom of this prophet: he mentions all Israel as one man, e.g., (44:2), “Fear not, My servant Jacob” ; (44:1) “And now, hearken, Jacob, My servant.” Here too (52:13), “Behold My servant shall prosper,” he said concerning the house of Jacob. יַשְׂכִּיל is an expression of prosperity. Comp. (I Sam. 18:14) “And David was successful (מַשְׂכִּיל) in all his ways.”

and as one who hides his face from us: Because of their intense shame and humility, they were as one who hides his face from us, with their faces bound up in concealment, in order that we not see them, like a plagued man who hides his face and is afraid to look.

4.Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
Rashi's Commentary:

Indeed, he bore our illnesses: Heb. אָכֵן, an expression of ‘but’ in all places. But now we see that this came to him not because of his low state, but that he was chastised with pains so that all the nations be atoned for with Israel’s suffering. The illness that should rightfully have come upon us, he bore.

yet we accounted him: We thought that he was hated by the Omnipresent, but he was not so, but he was pained because of our transgressions and crushed because of our iniquities
.



5.But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
Rashi's Commentary:

the chastisement of our welfare was upon him: The chastisement due to the welfare that we enjoyed, came upon him, for he was chastised so that there be peace for the entire world.

6.We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
Rashi's Commentary:

We all went astray like sheep: Now it is revealed that all the heathens (nations [mss.]) had erred.

accepted his prayers: He accepted his prayers and was appeased concerning the iniquity of all of us, that He did not destroy His world.

accepted… prayers: Heb. הִפְגִּיעַ, espriad in O.F., an expression of supplication.


7.He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
Rashi's Commentary:

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted: Behold he was oppressed by taskmasters and people who exert pressure.

and he was afflicted: with verbal taunts, sorparlec in O.F.

yet he would not open his mouth: He would suffer and remain silent like the lamb that is brought to the slaughter, and like the ewe that is mute before her shearers.

and he would not open his mouth: This refers to the lamb brought to the slaughter.

8.From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

Rashi's Commentary:

From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken: The prophet reports and says that the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) will say this at the end of days, when they see that he was taken from the imprisonment that he was imprisoned in their hands and from the judgment of torments that he suffered until now.

and his generation: The years that passed over him.

who shall tell?: The tribulations that befell him, for from the beginning, he was cut off and exiled from the land of the living that is the land of Israel for because of the transgression of my people, this plague came to the righteous among them.
9.And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth
Rashi's Commentary:

And he gave his grave to the wicked: He subjected himself to be buried according to anything the wicked of the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) would decree upon him, for they would penalize him with death and the burial of donkeys in the intestines of the dogs.

to the wicked: According to the will of the wicked, he was willing to be buried, and he would not deny the living God.

and to the wealthy with his kinds of death: and to the will of the ruler he subjected himself to all kinds of death that he decreed upon him, because he did not wish to agree to (denial) [of the Torah] to commit evil and to rob like all the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) among whom he lived.
and there was no deceit in his mouth: to accept idolatry (to accept a pagan deity as God [Parshandatha]).


10.And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
Rashi's Commentary:

And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to crush him and to cause him to repent; therefore, he made him ill.

If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.” This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not sen


11.From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

Rashi's Commentary:

From the toil of his soul: he would eat and be satisfied, and he would not rob and plunder.

with his knowledge… would vindicate the just: My servant would judge justly all those who came to litigate before him.

and their iniquities he would bear: He would bear, in the manner of all the righteous, as it is said (Num. 18:1): “You and your sons shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary.”
12.Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
Rashi's Commentary:

Therefore: Because he did this, I will allot him an inheritance and a lot in public with the Patriarchs.

he poured out his soul to death: Heb. הֶעֱרָה. An expression like (Gen. 24: 20), “And she emptied (וַתְּעַר) her pitcher.”

and with transgressors he was counted: He suffered torments as if he had sinned and transgressed, and this is because of others; he bore the sin of the many.

and interceded for the transgressors: through his sufferings, for good came to the world through him.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately this isn't scripture:

Quote:
1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

Gal. 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Jesus came into the world to die for the sins of the world as the Scriptures plainly state. If you have never believed that Christ died for your sins you remain under condemnation and eternal separation from God is in your future.
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