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Old 03-16-2016, 04:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, it does not. Grace means that God does all the work and man receives the benefit of God's grace. Paul noted that fact.

Romans 11:16 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Grace is God's attitude, and His policy concerning fallen mankind.



That is because no sinner deserves grace, but both Jesus and Paul are clear on the matter--Hebrews 10:26-- Jesus' sacrifice does not cover any who practice sin.---Matt 7:21-23---Jesus taught-- any who practice sin( worker of iniquity) he will say to them at judgement---GET AWAY from me you worker of iniquity, I must confess I never even knew you. And Jesus said--many here. And he is telling those who think they are Christian.
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
That is because no sinner deserves grace, but both Jesus and Paul are clear on the matter--Hebrews 10:26-- Jesus' sacrifice does not cover any who practice sin.---Matt 7:21-23---Jesus taught-- any who practice sin( worker of iniquity) he will say to them at judgement---GET AWAY from me you worker of iniquity, I must confess I never even knew you. And Jesus said--many here. And he is telling those who think they are Christian.
That is not the meaning of Hebrews 10:26 which is parallel to 10:18 in which the writer of Hebrews puts it in this way.
Heb. 10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
And that's a good thing. The point that writer of Hebrews is making in chapter 10 is that the one sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to cover all sin for all time. Hebrews 10:10 tells us that Jesus's sacrifice was once for all. Hebrews 10:12 states that Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for all time.

The writer of Hebrews is addressing Jewish Christians of whom some were being tempted by the Judaizers to forsake Christianity and return to the practice of Judaism. This was the focus of Hebrews 6:1-6 in which the writer of Hebrews is urging his readers not to fall away from what they had been taught. This is also what was being addressed in Galatians 5:1-4 by Paul where he admonishes the Galatians about receiving circumcision. The same issue is addressed in Acts 15 which addresses the issue of men from Judea claiming that one could not be saved unless they received circumcision according to the custom of Moses.

The sin of which the writer of Hebrews is warning his readers about is that of going back to the teaching of Judaism and forgetting about the fact that Jesus had already gave Himself for all sin for all time.

The danger was not in losing their salvation, but in incurring divine discipline in time. That is the discipline referred to in Hebrews 10:26-31. It was pointless to resume the practices of Judaism, including the temple sacrifices since Jesus had gone to the cross and made the perfect sacrifice for all time. There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins because it had already been made by Jesus an therefore never actually had a relationship with Jesus. And so they will be sent away to eternal punishment.

Now, the discipline is mentioned in Hebrews 10:27 in terms of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
A lot of people see that verse and the first thing that pops into their head is that it is referring to the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation chapter 20. But it's not referring to that at all.

'Fire' is a term used for judgment, and here it is being used metaphorically by the writer of Hebrews with regard to severe divine disciple in time to a believer. If you will look at Hebrews 12:4-8 the disobedient believer is disciplined as a son - AS A SON!
God does not disown an adopted son (the believer) because he sins. His sins were all paid for by Jesus on the cross. God disciplines, even severely disciplines the errant son but He will never disown him.



As for Matthew 7:21-23, if people would actually read that passage with understanding they would see that the ones to whom Jesus refers are people who have stated that they had performed works - cast out demons, prophesied, performed many miracles, all in the name of Jesus. Humanly speaking, one might think those are good things rather than sinful. However, whether those things which they will claim to have done were fake, as in the case of some of these television preachers, or were counterfeit miracles and prophesies empowered by Satan, they were being done by people who had never really placed their faith in Jesus for eternal life. And so they will be sent away into eternal punishment.
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:45 PM
 
4,221 posts, read 1,967,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

As for Matthew 7:21-23, if people would actually read that passage with understanding they would see that the ones to whom Jesus refers are people who have stated that they had performed works - cast out demons, prophesied, performed many miracles, all in the name of Jesus. Humanly speaking, one might think those are good things rather than sinful. However, whether those things which they will claim to have done were fake, as in the case of some of these television preachers, or were counterfeit miracles and prophesies empowered by Satan, they were being done by people who had never really placed their faith in Jesus for eternal life. And so they will be sent away into eternal punishment.
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and spirit.
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Old 03-17-2016, 02:54 PM
 
4,077 posts, read 1,462,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That is not the meaning of Hebrews 10:26 which is parallel to 10:18 in which the writer of Hebrews puts it in this way.
Heb. 10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
And that's a good thing. The point that writer of Hebrews is making in chapter 10 is that the one sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to cover all sin for all time. Hebrews 10:10 tells us that Jesus's sacrifice was once for all. Hebrews 10:12 states that Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for all time.

The writer of Hebrews is addressing Jewish Christians of whom some were being tempted by the Judaizers to forsake Christianity and return to the practice of Judaism. This was the focus of Hebrews 6:1-6 in which the writer of Hebrews is urging his readers not to fall away from what they had been taught. This is also what was being addressed in Galatians 5:1-4 by Paul where he admonishes the Galatians about receiving circumcision. The same issue is addressed in Acts 15 which addresses the issue of men from Judea claiming that one could not be saved unless they received circumcision according to the custom of Moses.

The sin of which the writer of Hebrews is warning his readers about is that of going back to the teaching of Judaism and forgetting about the fact that Jesus had already gave Himself for all sin for all time.

The danger was not in losing their salvation, but in incurring divine discipline in time. That is the discipline referred to in Hebrews 10:26-31. It was pointless to resume the practices of Judaism, including the temple sacrifices since Jesus had gone to the cross and made the perfect sacrifice for all time. There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins because it had already been made by Jesus an therefore never actually had a relationship with Jesus. And so they will be sent away to eternal punishment.

Now, the discipline is mentioned in Hebrews 10:27 in terms of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
A lot of people see that verse and the first thing that pops into their head is that it is referring to the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation chapter 20. But it's not referring to that at all.

'Fire' is a term used for judgment, and here it is being used metaphorically by the writer of Hebrews with regard to severe divine disciple in time to a believer. If you will look at Hebrews 12:4-8 the disobedient believer is disciplined as a son - AS A SON!
God does not disown an adopted son (the believer) because he sins. His sins were all paid for by Jesus on the cross. God disciplines, even severely disciplines the errant son but He will never disown him.



As for Matthew 7:21-23, if people would actually read that passage with understanding they would see that the ones to whom Jesus refers are people who have stated that they had performed works - cast out demons, prophesied, performed many miracles, all in the name of Jesus. Humanly speaking, one might think those are good things rather than sinful. However, whether those things which they will claim to have done were fake, as in the case of some of these television preachers, or were counterfeit miracles and prophesies empowered by Satan, they were being done by people who had never really placed their faith in Jesus for eternal life. And so they will be sent away into eternal punishment.



Actually they were workers of iniquity( practicer) of sin. The things they did were probably whole hearted endeavors--- Jesus was showing here--no matter how much you do for Gods will, if you practice a sin--- you lose.
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Old 03-17-2016, 03:29 PM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,674,976 times
Reputation: 7436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That is not the meaning of Hebrews 10:26 which is parallel to 10:18 in which the writer of Hebrews puts it in this way.
Heb. 10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
And that's a good thing. The point that writer of Hebrews is making in chapter 10 is that the one sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to cover all sin for all time. Hebrews 10:10 tells us that Jesus's sacrifice was once for all. Hebrews 10:12 states that Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for all time.

The writer of Hebrews is addressing Jewish Christians of whom some were being tempted by the Judaizers to forsake Christianity and return to the practice of Judaism. This was the focus of Hebrews 6:1-6 in which the writer of Hebrews is urging his readers not to fall away from what they had been taught. This is also what was being addressed in Galatians 5:1-4 by Paul where he admonishes the Galatians about receiving circumcision. The same issue is addressed in Acts 15 which addresses the issue of men from Judea claiming that one could not be saved unless they received circumcision according to the custom of Moses.

The sin of which the writer of Hebrews is warning his readers about is that of going back to the teaching of Judaism and forgetting about the fact that Jesus had already gave Himself for all sin for all time.

The danger was not in losing their salvation, but in incurring divine discipline in time. That is the discipline referred to in Hebrews 10:26-31. It was pointless to resume the practices of Judaism, including the temple sacrifices since Jesus had gone to the cross and made the perfect sacrifice for all time. There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins because it had already been made by Jesus an therefore never actually had a relationship with Jesus. And so they will be sent away to eternal punishment.

Now, the discipline is mentioned in Hebrews 10:27 in terms of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
A lot of people see that verse and the first thing that pops into their head is that it is referring to the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation chapter 20. But it's not referring to that at all.

'Fire' is a term used for judgment, and here it is being used metaphorically by the writer of Hebrews with regard to severe divine disciple in time to a believer. If you will look at Hebrews 12:4-8 the disobedient believer is disciplined as a son - AS A SON!
God does not disown an adopted son (the believer) because he sins. His sins were all paid for by Jesus on the cross. God disciplines, even severely disciplines the errant son but He will never disown him.



As for Matthew 7:21-23, if people would actually read that passage with understanding they would see that the ones to whom Jesus refers are people who have stated that they had performed works - cast out demons, prophesied, performed many miracles, all in the name of Jesus. Humanly speaking, one might think those are good things rather than sinful. However, whether those things which they will claim to have done were fake, as in the case of some of these television preachers, or were counterfeit miracles and prophesies empowered by Satan, they were being done by people who had never really placed their faith in Jesus for eternal life. And so they will be sent away into eternal punishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Actually they were workers of iniquity( practicer) of sin. The things they did were probably whole hearted endeavors--- Jesus was showing here--no matter how much you do for Gods will, if you practice a sin--- you lose.
Jesus was not saying that believers who sin lose their eternal salvation. Sinners who have trusted in Christ Jesus cannot lose their eternal salvation. They simply receive discipline in time and can lose rewards in the eternal state.

As I pointed out, Matthew 7:21-23 is best understood as referring to those who never trusted in Jesus for eternal life although they claimed to have performed works in His name.

What a pernicious belief it is to believe that God will revoke a believer's salvation for committing sins that Jesus already paid the penalty for so that God would not have to judge the believer for those sins. Divine discipline in time, yes. Eternal judgment, NO!!!

Even the unbeliever isn't condemned to eternal separation from God for his personal sins because Jesus died for the sins of everyone who will not believe on Him. They are condemned not for their sins, but for not trusting in Jesus' redemptive work on their behalf.

I've already made it clear that Hebrews 10 has nothing to do with believers being able to lose their salvation and that Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of everyone. But if you don't want to believe that, if you won't listen, I'm not going to keep arguing with you about it.
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Old 03-17-2016, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,568 posts, read 7,023,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
Heb 11:7 speaks of Noah's spiritual righteousness, while Gen 6:9 , Gen 7:1, and Ezek 14:14 speak of his personal righteousness.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It looks like we disagree then. And I believe I stated clearly why.
Then you are wrong, Mike, because the appropriate translation of the Koine would be "righteousness that is according to faith." In other words it is not a righteousness obtained by having faith, it is a roghteousness that comes because it is the result of that faith.
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Old 03-17-2016, 04:16 PM
 
1,420 posts, read 394,618 times
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The problem with grace is that it was hidden in the mind of God for all those centuries and not written to anyone in the OT or the 4 gospels........and Jesus never said a word that didn't reinforce the law and tell all to keep the commandments. Jesus was born under the law and taught under the law to only Jews as He came by promise to Israel.

The grace message was given exclusively to a man who was murdering believers and understood the law better than probably any other human.......Saul of Tarsus a Pharisee. As Paul he wrote Romans through Philemon and told the world how grace had come to Jews and the hated Gentiles so as to make the Jews jealous. The idea that Gentiles would be saved the same as the Jews would have driven the Temple worshipers to a frenzy. The world still largely ignores Paul and the message of grace, or considers it secondary to the law to their ultimate regret later. Today the world thinks you try to keep the law, even though not one mere human has done so, if you fail in your efforts you cast yourself upon Gods grace and hope for the best. NOT the way it works.

There is only one gospel in operation today and its the one given to Paul. There is no other gospel, period. And you can stand outside any service of a major denomination today and ask what the gospel is and get a thousand answers made up on the spot, and not one of them will be correct. They won't be correct because 90% of sermons are all taken from the 4 gospels or the OT and not a word of it is in there.

Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages
Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—
Rom 16:27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Paul wrote the gospel of grace by revelation, receiving it from no human source (ie the 12) and he calls it "my" gospel for good reason. If you consider yourself a Christian today but don't know where that gospel is, well then you have some studying to do.
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Old 03-17-2016, 04:29 PM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,674,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Then you are wrong, Mike, because the appropriate translation of the Koine would be "righteousness that is according to faith." In other words it is not a righteousness obtained by having faith, it is a roghteousness that comes because it is the result of that faith.
I simply used the English Standard Version when I posted Hebrews 11:7. While the Greek word κατὰ - kata is better translated as ''according to faith,'' The beginning of Hebrews 11:7 uses the Greek word Πίστει - pistei which is dative singular, an indirect object translated there as 'By faith.'

Therefore, using the NASB translation Hebrews 11:7 reads as,
Heb. 11:7 By faith(Pistei) Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to (kata) faith.
And so, Noah's righteousness was 'by faith' and 'according to' or 'in keeping with' faith. Both are used in the verse.

The righteousness of Christ is credited to those who place their faith in Him.
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Old 03-17-2016, 05:18 PM
 
4,077 posts, read 1,462,304 times
Reputation: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus was not saying that believers who sin lose their eternal salvation. Sinners who have trusted in Christ Jesus cannot lose their eternal salvation. They simply receive discipline in time and can lose rewards in the eternal state.

As I pointed out, Matthew 7:21-23 is best understood as referring to those who never trusted in Jesus for eternal life although they claimed to have performed works in His name.

What a pernicious belief it is to believe that God will revoke a believer's salvation for committing sins that Jesus already paid the penalty for so that God would not have to judge the believer for those sins. Divine discipline in time, yes. Eternal judgment, NO!!!

Even the unbeliever isn't condemned to eternal separation from God for his personal sins because Jesus died for the sins of everyone who will not believe on Him. They are condemned not for their sins, but for not trusting in Jesus' redemptive work on their behalf.

I've already made it clear that Hebrews 10 has nothing to do with believers being able to lose their salvation and that Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of everyone. But if you don't want to believe that, if you won't listen, I'm not going to keep arguing with you about it.



There is no argument--Jesus truth is 100% clear. Just as I showed in my previous post. Some really wise advice--- When ones teachers contradict Jesus--get a new one.
Maybe your teacher missed 1John 3--- it teaches who are the children of God and who are the children of the devil--It says--- It is impossible for a child of God to practice even one sin.
The bible writers teach the opposite of your post.
Ear tickling teachers--run from them. They are about one thing---$$$$$$$$$
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Old 03-17-2016, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,568 posts, read 7,023,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I simply used the English Standard Version when I posted Hebrews 11:7. While the Greek word κατὰ - kata is better translated as ''according to faith,'' The beginning of Hebrews 11:7 uses the Greek word Πίστει - pistei which is dative singular, an indirect object translated there as 'By faith.'

Therefore, using the NASB translation Hebrews 11:7 reads as,
Heb. 11:7 By faith(Pistei) Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to (kata) faith.
And so, Noah's righteousness was 'by faith' and 'according to' or 'in keeping with' faith. Both are used in the verse.

The righteousness of Christ is credited to those who place their faith in Him.
No, "by faith" Noah DID something, built an ark; "in keeping with faith" he practiced righteousness.
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