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Old 03-22-2016, 07:57 AM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,642,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotle's Child View Post
RESPONSE: No. So speak historians.
Historians who don't believe that predictive prophecy is possible. Not all historians fall into that group.
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Old 03-22-2016, 08:16 AM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,642,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotle's Child View Post
RESPONSE:

Yes. I am dealing with the issue at hand. Did Paul's companions hear or not hear the voice? This is an entgirely different matter than understanding what was said.

You evidently want to avoid the rather obvious contradiction among the accounts
You seem unable to grasp the grammatical issue involved in understanding what Luke meant. The issue being that Luke did not mean in Acts 22:9 that the men with Paul did not hear the voice, but that while they heard the voice, they did not understand it. To them it probably seemed to be a noise. And did I not just provide a number of Bible translations that translate Acts 22:9 as 'did not understand,' rather than 'did not hear?' Why yes I did.

There is no contradiction. I have already gone into detail about this in posts #72, 76, 79, 83, and 84, and don't intend to do so again. I'm not going to spend any further time on this. You either can't understand the issue or you simply refuse to accept it. Either way, this has gone on long enough.
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Old 03-22-2016, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 292,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You seem unable to grasp the grammatical issue involved in understanding what Luke meant. The issue being that Luke did not mean in Acts 22:9 that the men with Paul did not hear the voice, but that while they heard the voice, they did not understand it. To them it probably seemed to be a noise. And did I not just provide a number of Bible translations that translate Acts 22:9 as 'did not understand,' rather than 'did not hear?' Why yes I did.

There is no contradiction. I have already gone into detail about this in posts #72, 76, 79, 83, and 84, and don't intend to do so again. I'm not going to spend any further time on this. You either can't understand the issue or you simply refuse to accept it. Either way, this has gone on long enough.
RESPONSE:

Unless one really wants to avoid the facts, any "grammatical" issue isn't important. Either Paul's companions heard the voice or did not. Simple.

Still, keep in mind that Acts gives us three conflicting accounts (c 80 AD) of Paul's supposed experience (in c. 36 AD) written by Luke, a non-witness, while Paul's Epistles say absolutely nothing about it. His would be witness testimony if it had really occurred.

How should reality oriented historians regard Luke's conflicting accounts and the absence of any mention of them by Paul the primary witness?

Since you don't address even the basic question of this being a real event and not just a story or the credibility of Luke's three accounts, you are wise to say no more about it.

Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 03-22-2016 at 09:00 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
10,013 posts, read 4,148,276 times
Reputation: 6339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The point however is that virtually every trained scholar who studies in the area recognizes that Jesus existed historically.
Not true. What you really should have said is: The historicity of Jesus is now widely accepted and hardly questioned by most scholars. This sounds exactly how fundamentalism/region works. Just simply accept it without questioning it. Times are changing and we now seeing more and more scholars who are starting to question it.

Both established and up and coming scholars from around the world address the mythicist question from a variety of different perspectives and methodologies. Most importantly, the individual contributions are not uniform in their conclusions concerning the historicity of Jesus.

The assumption of a historical Jesus disarms biblical texts of much of their power by privileging an historical interpretation which effectively sweeps aside much theological speculation and allusion. Furthermore, the assumption of historicity gathers further assumptions to it, shaping the interpretation of texts, both denying and adding subtext.

I suggest you read: Is this not the Carpenter?

Scholars are now faced with an endless array of works on the historical Jesus and few question what has been lost through this wide-spread assumption of historicity.

One of the chief problems confronting "trained" scholars interested in the historicity of Jesus, like that of the historicity of King Arthur, is that there are no contemporary records of his life or existence.

However, certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesi" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic.

I would think one would conduct extensive research on any subject but especially on a subject chosen for spiritual development before just blindly following it.

From what I have read on how christianity started it makes perfect sense why this is a failed religion. It makes sense why we are observing more and more of the world recognizing this.

The US has a long way to go to come into the 21st Century with respect to realizing how ridiculous it is to simply base your spiritual development on a Christ myth theory/Jesus myth theory.

The reason the US is far behind Europe with respect to awakening I think is twofold.
  1. The early history of the U.S. involved a lot of highly religious people. Think of the Puritans. A lot of these sorts of people left Europe in the first place because it wasn't conducive to their religious beliefs/practices. So religious heritage is in America's backbone from the very beginning of European colonization.

  2. Perhaps counter-intuitively, it's because the U.S. does not have a state-established religion. Anything affiliated with the government or thought of as "establishment" is going to atrophy. Look at the UK. It has a national church and yet religious beliefs there are fairly low. This is why the fundamentalist/dominionist ideal of christianity as a "state" religion in the U.S. would actually have the opposite effect of what's intended. Christianity (and other religions) thrive because it is free to do so without government oversight or intervention.

Last edited by Matadora; 03-22-2016 at 12:01 PM..
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Old 03-22-2016, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,584 posts, read 5,115,237 times
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[quote=Aristotle's Child;43443151]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
WARNING, THE FOLLOWING POST IS QUITE PHILOSOPHICAL

Scripture absolutely contains human errors. But it contains stories about humans who made a boatload of errors, some of them serious, and were still considered godly men---Abraham, David, Moses to name a few.

So having a book with errors in it is no different than having a patriarch with human flaws in his character. The purpose of both is to point beyond themselves to something greater.

RESPONSE:

You are confusing two different issues. We are not talking about errors the bible characters committed, but whether or not that accounts in the bible are real events or just stories containing obvious mistakes.

Don't confuse them!

Inspiration Incompatible with Error, PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS,20

"...so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true."

"...because the Holy Ghost employed men as His instruments, we cannot therefore say that it was these inspired instruments who, perchance, have fallen into error, and not the primary author. For, by supernatural power, He so moved and impelled them to write-He was so present to them-that the things which He ordered, and those only, they, first, rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write down, and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth. Otherwise, it could not be said that He was the Author of the entire Scripture. Such has always been the persuasion of the Fathers.

In sum, if the biblical accounts contain historical or factual error, they are not inspired by God who cannot err, but are only human writings.
From the earliest church fathers there were those who understood Scripture as allegorical in most places. Among the best scholars the book of Job is considered both the oldest and the most allegorical. One of the first church fathers, Origen, believed the story of Eden to be allegorical---I do believe a brief summary of his views are on Wikipedia. Augustine, while relatively conservative and the cause of some of the first grave divergences in church dogma (original sin), knew that Scripture did not conflict with what can be seen in nature. He even chided his readers not to be foolish and try to convince those around them that the Bible superseded what they could plainly see.

History as we know it was not a concern of Hebrew writers. There was no onus on them for bibliographies at the end of what they wrote. Their purpose was to find unity among themselves, and to become a nation that could survive among the surrounding pagan tribes.

You have swallowed the modern fundamentalist view that only perfection equals inspiration. That view began to develop fully late in the nineteenth century as more educated scholars began a realistic view of Scripture. the Bible has both fact and myths. Myths are told to enhance a larger story. The Bible is a "witness" of the community of faith regarding what they believed. We have four "witnesses" to the resurrection in the gospels. All four accounts are different. In a trial the Adversary uses the tactics of lawyers to say "because the details vary, the resurrection story is untrue. But any reasoning person would see that while details are different, the theme is consistent.

Perfection isn't required except by doubters (for self-justification), nor by Christians who live by faith, not idols.
The Bible is chock full of flawed men who were "inspired" to follow where their faith led. But they were not perfect. A book that is frequently allegory and supports with its very stories the idea that God uses flawed vehicles for His message has no need to be perfect, but it does require great "study to show you are approved of God, rightly dividing the word of truth." Fundamentalists worship the Bible and need it to be perfect. They suck inspiration out of Scripture and provide grounds for non-believers to laugh at them (even as Augustine prognosticated they would 1700 years ago).

That fundamentalist view, by removing the Bible from the realm of faith and trying to make it a "fact book" has been the most serious blow to Christianity in the last 200 years. It is a book about faith, not a history book, though it has some, not a scientific book, although it contains flawed, superficial views of science, not a sociology book, except about Hebrew society. It is a faith book and belongs in that realm. It can only be approached honestly with faith.

Isaiah the sixth chapter tells of a vision Isaiah had when He entered the Temple in Jerusalem. He saw God high and lifted up with seraphims and cherubs flying around. He heard God speak. Several hundred years later Antiochus of Epiphanes, who conquered the Israelites, rode his horse up the Temple steps and into that same building and looked about crying, "I see no God." Isaiah saw with the eyes of faith. Antiochus with uninspired eyes.

The Bible requires eyes of faith. Those who try to make it into a perfect book are the antithesis of faith. They are your opposite number but with the same flaw---no faith. If it is perfect then faith in the Spirit of God and His ongoing revelation are unnecessary. It becomes but a fact to be weighed and accepted or rejected. Yet without eyes of faith one cannot find Him.

If it must be perfect to reflect God, then the Bible has nothing to offer you. If it is the story of God working through flawed humans, and allowing flawed men to act upon Him, sometimes in detriment to what God would desire (as the Cross did), it is ground for faith. We trust many things and often many people that are flawed. We have faith in them. Sometimes they disappoint us, but when they do not they bring us great joy and sense of community. So, too, the imperfect Bible. Those with eyes of faith don't waste time trying to pretty up discrepancies that non-believers easily see through. We spend our time proclaiming the best of what our witness has to offer---because it is not about pointing to flaws, it is about pointing beyond any flaws to a God who wants to walk with us and Who is humble enough to share in the flaws we possess.

That is the picture of a loving Father Who desires the best from His children.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.(Hebrews 11:6)

No one can find faith FOR you. It is a solitary journey--and requires eyes of faith to see beyond the flaws of men, both in person and through their writings.
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Old 03-22-2016, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,584 posts, read 5,115,237 times
Reputation: 3916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Not true. What you really should have said is: The historicity of Jesus is now widely accepted and hardly questioned by most scholars. This sounds exactly how fundamentalism/region works. Just simply accept it without questioning it. Times are changing and we now seeing more and more scholars who are starting to question it.

Both established and up and coming scholars from around the world address the mythicist question from a variety of different perspectives and methodologies. Most importantly, the individual contributions are not uniform in their conclusions concerning the historicity of Jesus.

The assumption of a historical Jesus disarms biblical texts of much of their power by privileging an historical interpretation which effectively sweeps aside much theological speculation and allusion. Furthermore, the assumption of historicity gathers further assumptions to it, shaping the interpretation of texts, both denying and adding subtext.

I suggest you read: Is this not the Carpenter?

Scholars are now faced with an endless array of works on the historical Jesus and few question what has been lost through this wide-spread assumption of historicity.

One of the chief problems confronting "trained" scholars interested in the historicity of Jesus, like that of the historicity of King Arthur, is that there are no contemporary records of his life or existence.

However, certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesi" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic.

I would think one would conduct extensive research on any subject but especially on a subject chosen for spiritual development before just blindly following it.

From what I have read on how christianity started it makes perfect sense why this is a failed religion. It makes sense why we are observing more and more of the world recognizing this.

The US has a long way to go to come into the 21st Century with respect to realizing how ridiculous it is to simply base your spiritual development on a Christ myth theory/Jesus myth theory.

The reason the US is far behind Europe with respect to awakening I think is twofold.
  1. The early history of the U.S. involved a lot of highly religious people. Think of the Puritans. A lot of these sorts of people left Europe in the first place because it wasn't conducive to their religious beliefs/practices. So religious heritage is in America's backbone from the very beginning of European colonization.

  2. Perhaps counter-intuitively, it's because the U.S. does not have a state-established religion. Anything affiliated with the government or thought of as "establishment" is going to atrophy. Look at the UK. It has a national church and yet religious beliefs there are fairly low. This is why the fundamentalist/dominionist ideal of christianity as a "state" religion in the U.S. would actually have the opposite effect of what's intended. Christianity (and other religions) thrive because it is free to do so without government oversight or intervention.
Matadora, I have much respect for your thoughtful posts--and I certainly agree with paragraph two at the end of your post. But Jesus simply isn't a "myth." The imperfection of the separate human witnesses prove no conspiracy existed and gives credibility to the existence of a remarkable man. Eyes of faith see Him as the Christ.

It is an uphill battle to prove Jesus didn't exist. It's akin to saying there is no evolution in the natural world because we have no missing link.

Now what one might accept or believe about the nature of that man Jesus is up for grabs. The witness of the gospels is that there were plenty of people who saw Him that did not accept His message of anti-wealth, anti-power structure, and anti-LAW worship. The question of His existence is settled. The question of what each of us does with that information, is our own, solitary journey.
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Old 03-22-2016, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,872,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Matadora, I have much respect for your thoughtful posts--and I certainly agree with paragraph two at the end of your post. But Jesus simply isn't a "myth." The imperfection of the separate human witnesses prove no conspiracy existed and gives credibility to the existence of a remarkable man. Eyes of faith see Him as the Christ.

It is an uphill battle to prove Jesus didn't exist. It's akin to saying there is no evolution in the natural world because we have no missing link.

Now what one might accept or believe about the nature of that man Jesus is up for grabs. The witness of the gospels is that there were plenty of people who saw Him that did not accept His message of anti-wealth, anti-power structure, and anti-LAW worship. The question of His existence is settled. The question of what each of us does with that information, is our own, solitary journey.
Couldn't rep you yet, but that's the best post I've seen in a long time.
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Old 03-22-2016, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
10,013 posts, read 4,148,276 times
Reputation: 6339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Matadora, I have much respect for your thoughtful posts--and I certainly agree with paragraph two at the end of your post. But Jesus simply isn't a "myth." The imperfection of the separate human witnesses prove no conspiracy existed and gives credibility to the existence of a remarkable man. Eyes of faith see Him as the Christ.
Thank you, but I have to conclude that there is no concrete "historical" evidence of his existence at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
It is an uphill battle to prove Jesus didn't exist. It's akin to saying there is no evolution in the natural world because we have no missing link.
No it's not even in the same ball park. We indeed have missing links in Evolution but the overwhelming amount of other evidence catapults it to a Scientific Theory that has gained more and more evidence. In fact it's the most well supported Scientific Theory we have due to the overwhelming evidence.

This is opposite to the Jesus myth theory, as more time goes on more and more scholars are now questioning it..as they should have been from the very beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Now what one might accept or believe about the nature of that man Jesus is up for grabs. The witness of the gospels is that there were plenty of people who saw Him that did not accept His message of anti-wealth, anti-power structure, and anti-LAW worship. The question of His existence is settled. The question of what each of us does with that information, is our own, solitary journey.
The real issue I have with the Jesus thing is looking at how much suffering christianity brought to humanity for centuries based on it's self-proclamations and expecting others to merely believe in the Jesus myth. When this religion spread you were killed for resisting it. How NON-SPIRITUAL and BARBARIC can a religion get?

Look at all the divide this has brought into the world. My stand is who cares about old antiquated stories about a myth that can't be proven? This should have no bearing on a person's spiritual development.

Why are some people today incessant on needing/wanting to believe in this myth to develop spiritually?

Simply believing that Jesus or Muhammad existed does not do anything for a persons spiritual development...in fact all of the religions (except for Buddhism) have been fighting and warring over their "beliefs" for centuries. These religions have caused so much harm to humanity for far too long. They have stifled people's spiritual development and progress for long enough. It's been long overdue for people to wake up to this and put a stop to it. We don't need religion in order to cultivate love, compassion and a balanced mind body and spirit.

Why is it so difficult for people to find ways to cultivate love, compassion, a balanced mind body and spirit without having to "believe" in ancient mythological religious characters or religion? Thankfully the world is waking up to this reality.

There a numerous modern day books that don't rely on being the follower of any religion or god that can help people develop spiritually.
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Old 03-22-2016, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,584 posts, read 5,115,237 times
Reputation: 3916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Thank you, but I have to conclude that there is no concrete "historical" evidence of his existence at all.
No it's not even in the same ball park. We indeed have missing links in Evolution but the overwhelming amount of other evidence catapults it to a Scientific Theory that has gained more and more evidence. In fact it's the most well supported Scientific Theory we have due to the overwhelming evidence.

This is opposite to the Jesus myth theory, as more time goes on more and more scholars are now questioning it..as they should have been from the very beginning.



The real issue I have with the Jesus thing is looking at how much suffering christianity brought to humanity for centuries based on it's self-proclamations and expecting others to merely believe in the Jesus myth. When this religion spread you were killed for resisting it. How NON-SPIRITUAL and BARBARIC can a religion get?

Look at all the divide this has brought into the world. My stand is who cares about old antiquated stories about a myth that can't be proven? This should have no bearing on a person's spiritual development.

Why are some people today incessant on needing/wanting to believe in this myth to develop spiritually?

Simply believing that Jesus or Muhammad existed does not do anything for a persons spiritual development...in fact all of the religions (except for Buddhism) have been fighting and warring over their "beliefs" for centuries. These religions have caused so much harm to humanity for far too long. They have stifled people's spiritual development and progress for long enough. It's been long overdue for people to wake up to this and put a stop to it. We don't need religion in order to cultivate love, compassion and a balanced mind body and spirit.

Why is it so difficult for people to find ways to cultivate love, compassion, a balanced mind body and spirit without having to "believe" in ancient mythological religious characters or religion? Thankfully the world is waking up to this reality.

There a numerous modern day books that don't rely on being the follower of any religion or god that can help people develop spiritually.
The VAST majority of scholars understand an historical Jesus however they may differ about who He was.

Jesus came to bring a spirituality of the heart. And He came to people who were a religion of the "book." (the Jews). The problems exist today because religion is STILL not spirituality of the heart. It remains in a "book." The Bible itself shows how horrible a religion of the "book" really is. The people of the book then, killed Jesus physically. The people of the book today, kill His spirit. People who live by the book remain murderers like Isis, or murderers of the spirit, like fundamentalist christians.

To me it shows how very much we need the Jesus of the heart--in whatever form that might be.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
10,013 posts, read 4,148,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Jesus came to bring a spirituality of the heart. And He came to people who were a religion of the "book." (the Jews). The problems exist today because religion is STILL not spirituality of the heart. It remains in a "book." The Bible itself shows how horrible a religion of the "book" really is. The people of the book then, killed Jesus physically. The people of the book today, kill His spirit.

To me it shows how very much we need the Jesus of the heart--in whatever form that might be.
Forget what happened in the past. Please stop blaming this for what is wrong today. Humanity can't progress with that type of blame and thinking.

What is wrong today is that religion stifles true spiritual growth and development.

What we need today is for people to find ways to ways to cultivate love, compassion, and a balanced mind body and spirit without having to "believe" in ancient mythological religious characters or religion. Spiritual development is not a One Size Fits All discipline.

People of today need to awaken to their own ways of discovering how to cultivate love, compassion, and a balanced mind body and spirit.

That is what the world truly needs today.
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