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Old 03-22-2016, 01:04 PM
Status: "Amused by BF/V." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Forget what happened in the past. Please stop blaming this for what is wrong today. Humanity can't progress with that type of blame and thinking.

What is wrong today is that religion stifles true spiritual growth and development.

What we need today is for people to find ways to ways to cultivate love, compassion, and a balanced mind body and spirit without having to "believe" in ancient mythological religious characters or religion.

People of today need to awaken to their own ways of discovering how to cultivate love, compassion, and a balanced mind body and spirit.


That is what the world truly needs today.
Well said.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Not true. What you really should have said is:The historicity of Jesus is now widely accepted and hardly questioned by most scholars. This sounds exactly how fundamentalism/region works. Just simply accept it without questioning it. Times are changing and we now seeing more and more scholars who are starting to question it.

Both established and up and coming scholars from around the world address the mythicist question from a variety of different perspectives and methodologies. Most importantly, the individual contributions are not uniform in their conclusions concerning the historicity of Jesus


The assumption of a historical Jesus disarms biblical texts of much of their power by privileging an historical interpretation which effectively sweeps aside much theological speculation and allusion. Furthermore, the assumption of historicity gathers further assumptions to it, shaping the interpretation of texts, both denying and adding subtext.

I suggest you read: Is this not the Carpenter?

Scholars are now faced with an endless array of works on the historical Jesus and few question what has been lost through this wide-spread assumption of historicity.

One of the chief problems confronting "trained" scholars interested in the historicity of Jesus, like that of the historicity of King Arthur, is that there are no contemporary records of his life or existence.

However, certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesi" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic.

I would think one would conduct extensive research on any subject but especially on a subject chosen for spiritual development before just blindly following it.

From what I have read on how christianity started it makes perfect sense why this is a failed religion. It makes sense why we are observing more and more of the world recognizing this.

The US has a long way to go to come into the 21st Century with respect to realizing how ridiculous it is to simply base your spiritual development on a Christ myth theory/Jesus myth theory.

The reason the US is far behind Europe with respect to awakening I believe is 2 fold.

I think it's twofold.
  1. The early history of the U.S. involves a lot of highly religious people. Think of the Puritans. A lot of these sorts of people left Europe in the first place because it wasn't conducive to their religious beliefs/practices. So religious heritage is in America's bones from the beginning of European colonization.

  2. Perhaps counter-intuitively, it's because the U.S. does not have a state-established religion. Anything affiliated with the government or thought of as "establishment" is going to atrophy. Look at the UK. It has a national church and yet religious beliefs there are fairly low. This is why the fundamentalist/dominionist ideal of Christianity as a "state" religion in the U.S. would actually have the opposite effect of what's intended. Christianity (and other religions) thrive because it is free to do so without government oversight or intervention.
I said what I said and I stand by it. And I quoted a scholar who is an agnostic. He does not consider himself to be a Christian. It is simply ignorant to claim that scholars and historians don't question and evaluate the historical evidence.

The historical existence of Jesus was never doubted until recent times. Scholars who aren't even Christian recognize that Jesus existed based on the historical evidence and attestation from early sources.

For example, we have the testimony of Josephus who has two entries in his Antiquities of the Jews in which Jesus is mentioned. The authenticity of one of those passages is not doubted, and the other, while believed to have been interpolated at a later time by a Christian writer, nevertheless has a core which scholars believe to be authentic.

In Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1, Josephus (A.D.37 - c. A.D.100), mentions James, the brother of Christ. Most, if not all, scholars recognize this passage to be authentic. Now, if James the brother of Jesus existed, then Jesus existed.
Antiquities 20.9.1 ''Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrim of the judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James . . .''

Now, the other passage, Antiquities 18.3.3, with what are believed to be later interpolations, reads as follows;
''Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,---a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.''

[From the Complete Works of Josephus]

Once the interpolations are removed, the passage is considered by scholars to have originally read something like this;
''At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. He was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. When Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians named after him, has not died out.''

[Did Jesus Exist, Ehrman, p.61]
Now, scholars, upon examining and questioning the text, believe that once what are thought to be later interpolations are removed, Antiquities 18.3.3 has an authentic core in which Jesus is mentioned by Josephus.

That is but one of the early historical evidences that Jesus existed. There are of course others. It is sheer foolishness to deny that Jesus existed historically. And it is foolish to simply dismiss the work and views of trained historians who recognize that Jesus existed.


And no. Christianity is not a failed religion. Christianity has its origins in real historical events, foremost being the resurrection of Jesus which was witnessed by many who suffered, and some at least, were even martyred for proclaiming the risen Jesus. And a great deal of resurrection studies by scholars from across the spectrum of views has been conducted in recent years.
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Originally Posted by granpa View Post
The Bible and Information Theory

Modern information theory, which is applied routinely in the error detection and correction techniques used in electronic data transmission, can be applied to the idea of inerrancy in the information conveyed by the scriptures.

The Bible, by its own witness, consists of an ensemble of messsages emitted by its originator, God, into the noisy channel of human history. Clearly, its divine Originator knew the character and magnitude of the noise in the channel of transmission when He composed the messages in the ensemble. Equally clearly, He would have no difficulty encoding the information in this ensemble of messages in such a way that it could be inerrantly received by every intended recipient, in spite of the effects of the noise upon its individual message elements-that is, in spite of scribal errors, editorial or redactional emendations, or by any other occurrences that would cause the text viewed by the recipient to differ in some ways from the text originally committed to the channel of transmission
Outstanding post! Fairly clearly exposes what "inspiration" is all about. The message IS there and the fact that pretty much everyone gets the basics is often reflected in the comments about the unloving behavior of nominal Christians as "not very Christian of you."
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I said what I said and I stand by it.
Ditto!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is simply ignorant to claim that scholars and historians don't question and evaluate the historical evidence.
Yes I also find it ignorant that nearly all modern scholars of antiquity, which is the majority viewpoint, agree that Jesus existed and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted. Bart Ehrman (a secular agnostic) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees".

This is ignorance at it's best.
Quote:
"The few non-Christian sources [e.g. Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and Josephus] merely confirm that in antiquity it never occurred to any one, even the bitterest enemies of Christianity, to doubt the existence of Jesus"
However as I mentioned earlier, one of the chief problems confronting "trained" scholars interested in the historicity of Jesus, like that of the historicity of King Arthur, is that there are no contemporary records of his life or existence.

Nice to see that times are changing.

Certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesi" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The historical existence of Jesus was never doubted until recent times.
It's nice to see humans are wising up and beginning to question things that have not seriously been questioned in the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And no. Christianity is not a failed religion.
Oh it certainly is a failed religion. You would have to be a deaf dumb and blind person to not see this. Simply look at your behavior in this thread! Perhaps you would be a much more loving, kind, compassionate human if you did not have this need to shove the gospels as you interpret them down others throats. I don't see how this helps you or anyone else to cultivate love, kindness, compassion, and a balanced mind body and spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Christianity has its origins in real historical events, foremost being the resurrection of Jesus which was witnessed by many who suffered, and some at least, were even martyred for proclaiming the risen Jesus. And a great deal of resurrection studies by scholars from across the spectrum of views has been conducted in recent years.
Christianity arose out of a loose collection of documents, written by different people, over a period of time, who were not all writing with the purpose of creating authoritative religious documents or artifacts that were intended to be preserved for posterity. On top of that, of course, we have the fact that the central story that popularized the religion was in fact a fictional story.

Instead of your trying to prove something that can't be proven, why not instead use your time in a more productive manner and learn how to cultivate love, compassion, and a balanced mind body and spirit without having to "believe" in ancient mythological religious characters or religion on top of arguing about ancient unconfirmed gospels?
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Old 03-22-2016, 04:38 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,658,083 times
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Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Ditto! Yes I also find it ignorant that nearly all modern scholars of antiquity, which is the majority viewpoint, agree that Jesus existed and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted. Bart Ehrman (a secular agnostic) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees".

This is ignorance at it's best.
It is quite presumptuous of you to make a blanket dismissal of trained and educated scholars and historians as ignorant.

Quote:
However as I mentioned earlier, one of the chief problems confronting "trained" scholars interested in the historicity of Jesus, like that of the historicity of King Arthur, is that there are no contemporary records of his life or existence.
All of the New Testament documents were written by the end of the 1st century, and most of them years earlier, placing the last of the New Testament documents no later than about 65 years or so after the death of Jesus. Historically that is nothing. And the time gap between the time of Jesus and the writing of the NT documents is far closer than is the case with other ancient documents concerning other historical figures but which historians accept as historical evidence.

Quote:
Certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesi" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic.
The apostolic church fathers were contemporaries of the apostles. And some of the apostolic fathers knew some of the apostles. Irenaeus, who was born in the early second century writes that Polycarp (AD 69 – 155), not only knew the apostles, but that he had been appointed by the apostles as bishop of the Church in Smyrna.
Against Heresies 3.3.4

But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 3 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Polycarp knew the apostles. He is said to have known the apostle John and the others who had seen the Lord. The apostle John was an eye witness to Jesus, having spent three years with Jesus during His public ministry.
Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenus II.

These 4798 opinions, Florinus, that I may speak in mild terms, are not of sound doctrine; these opinions are not consonant to the Church, and involve their votaries in the utmost impiety; these opinions, even the heretics beyond the Church’s pale have never ventured to broach; these opinions, those presbyters who preceded us, and who were conversant with the apostles, did not hand down to thee. For, while I was yet a boy, I saw thee in Lower Asia with Polycarp, distinguishing thyself in the royal court, 4799 and endeavouring to gain his approbation. For I have a more vivid recollection of what occurred at that time than of recent events (inasmuch as the experiences of childhood, keeping pace with the growth of the soul, become incorporated with it); so that I can even describe the place where the blessed Polycarp used to sit and discourse— his going out, too, and his coming in—his general mode of life and personal appearance, together with the discourses which he delivered to the people; also how he would speak of his familiar intercourse with John, and with the rest of those who had seen the Lord; and how he would call their words to remembrance. Whatsoever things he had heard from them respecting the Lord, both with regard to His miracles and His teaching, Polycarp having thus received [information] from the eye-witnesses of the Word of life, would recount them all in harmony with the Scriptures. These things, through, God’s mercy which was upon me, I then listened to attentively, and treasured them up not on paper, but in my heart; and I am continually, by God’s grace, revolving these things accurately in my mind. And I can bear witness before God, that if that blessed and apostolical presbyter had heard any such thing, he would have cried out, and stopped his ears, exclaiming as he was wont to do: “O good God, for what times hast Thou reserved me, that I should endure these things?” And he would have fled from the very spot where, sitting or standing, he had heard such words. This fact, too, can be made clear, from his Epistles which he despatched, whether to the neighbouring Churches to confirm them, or to certain of the brethren, admonishing and exhorting them. [Bolding mine]

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol I: IRENUS: II.
I have already mentioned that Josephus wrote of James the brother of Jesus (the Christ) and that scholars recognize the authenticity of the passage.

Quote:
Oh it certainly is a failed religion. You would have to be a deaf dumb and blind person to not see this. Simply look at your behavior in this thread! Perhaps you would be a much more loving, kind, compassionate human if you did not have this need to shove the gospels as you interpret them down others throats. I don't see how this helps you or anyone else to cultivate love, kindness, compassion, and a balanced mind body and spirit.
Your disapproval of what I said on this thread to someone has no bearing on the status of Christianity.

Quote:
Christianity arose out of a loose collection of documents, written by different people, over a period of time, who were not all writing with the purpose of creating authoritative religious documents or artifacts that were intended to be preserved for posterity. On top of that, of course, we have the fact that the central story that popularized the religion was in fact a fictional story.
No, the central story was not fictional. Men don't suffer and even die for a fictional story. And it is known historically that at least some of the apostles were martyred. James, the brother of Jesus, while not one of the twelve apostles, was martyred for instance. And Peter and Paul were both martyred.

Christianity began on the day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus who was witnessed after He had risen by those who were willing to suffer and even die for what they knew to be true since they were eyewitnesses to the event.


Quote:
Instead of your trying to prove something that can't be proven, why not instead use your time in a more productive manner and learn how to cultivate love, compassion, and a balanced mind body and spirit without having to "believe" in ancient mythological religious characters or religion on top of arguing about ancient unconfirmed gospels?
There is valid historical evidence not only for the existence of Jesus, but for His resurrection. Whether or not you personally can be objective enough to accept that evidence, many others have been able to accept it.

Yes, Jesus existed, and He is the Son of God. He came into the world to die for your sins so that you can have eternal life through faith in Him.

I will leave you with the following videos dealing with the subject of the resurrection. You owe it to yourself to listen to them. But do with them what you will.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ErnJF_nwBk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0iDNLxmWVM

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdIM8QoD8UE[/quote]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdIM8QoD8UE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWbShiINl4s
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Old 03-22-2016, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is quite presumptuous of you to make a blanket dismissal of trained and educated scholars and historians as ignorant.
OMG Mike you are really going off of the deep end here.

It's not just me making blanket dismissals of scholars...it's other scholars who are also raising questions. Get over it that you have nothing credible to present to me or anyone else as to whether or not this Jesus character ever existed.

Do you wonder why "trained" bible scholars in the past kept quit? Their these views would prevent one from getting employment in a religious studies department.

Common sense should tell you that a "trained" bible scholar of the past was a willing gullible participant. They did not train to be a scholar so they can refute the credibility of the bible gospels.

Thankfully the Jesus myth is being exposed by modern trained bible scholars who are not afraid to voice what they know.

Dr. Robert M. Price is a perfect example of this.

You can sit around for the rest of your life with your head in the sand and waste it on trying to prove your case when you have no case to prove.

Instead you should spend your time learning how to cultivate love, kindness, compassion as well as how to maintain a balanced mind body and spirit.

Save your YouTube videos as I already know how to conduct research. You are not going to teach me anything...I know I am dealing with a biased bullheaded intellectually dishonest human.

Oh and about that crucifixion that never occurred. I suggest for the link below that you do a Ctrl F, type in crucifixion and learn how silly it is to even believe such a thing. Then do a Ctrl F, type in resurrection and see how utterly ridiculous it is to believe this occurred.

How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity
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Old 03-22-2016, 05:29 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,658,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
OMG Mike you are really going off of the deep end here.

It's not just me making blanket dismissals of scholars...it's other scholars who are also raising questions. Get over it that you have nothing credible to present to me or anyone else as to whether or not this Jesus character ever existed.

Do you wonder why "trained" bible scholars in the past kept quit? Their these views would prevent one from getting employment in a religious studies department.

Common sense should tell you that a "trained" bible scholar of the past was a willing gullible participant. They did not train to be a scholar so they can refute the credibility of the bible gospels.

Thankfully the Jesus myth is being exposed by modern trained bible scholars who are not afraid to voice what they know.

Dr. Robert M. Price is a perfect example of this.

You can sit around for the rest of your life with your head in the sand and waste it on trying to prove your case when you have no case to prove.

Instead you should spend your time learning how to cultivate love, kindness, compassion as well as how to maintain a balanced mind body and spirit.

Save your YouTube videos as I already know how to conduct research. You are not going to teach me anything...I know I am dealing with a biased bullheaded intellectually dishonest human.

Oh and about that crucifixion that never occurred. I suggest for the link below that you do a Ctrl F, type in crucifixion and learn how silly it is to even believe such a thing. Then do a Ctrl F, type in resurrection and see how utterly ridiculous it is to believe this occurred.

How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity
Matadora, I leave you to your ignorance. My hands are clean.
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Old 03-22-2016, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,597 posts, read 5,122,268 times
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Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Forget what happened in the past. Please stop blaming this for what is wrong today. Humanity can't progress with that type of blame and thinking.

What is wrong today is that religion stifles true spiritual growth and development.

What we need today is for people to find ways to ways to cultivate love, compassion, and a balanced mind body and spirit without having to "believe" in ancient mythological religious characters or religion. Spiritual development is not a One Size Fits All discipline.

People of today need to awaken to their own ways of discovering how to cultivate love, compassion, and a balanced mind body and spirit.

That is what the world truly needs today.
Winston Churchill wisely said those who fail to understand the past are doomed to repeat it. Throughout history this has been darn near axiomatic. It certainly was between the two world wars.

So why wouldn't I understand that to be true with religious history? Why would I forget the past? History is a key to what runs through the human heart--because the worst parts of humanity always make the loudest splash.

Do you resent my faith in God when it has resulted in turning in me embracing "Love thy neighbor as thyself" as the criteria not only for how I act but even how I believe? That was what had me standing up for our LGBTQ community. if I can get a tax break by being married, why can't a gay person? It's basic fairness. Christ is my motivator toward fairness.

Would you not at least agree with Ghandi who told a western reporter, "Your Jesus, I like. Your Christians, not so much?"
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Old 03-22-2016, 05:47 PM
Status: "Amused by BF/V." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
23,353 posts, read 12,085,923 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Matadora, I leave you to your ignorance. My hands are clean.
Mike flounces better - AND more often - from threads than anyone!

I can almost see the hooped crinoline* bouncing with indignation as he exits - stage right....


*Those of you under that age of 60 or so, can look it up.
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Old 03-22-2016, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
10,083 posts, read 4,161,649 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Matadora, I leave you to your ignorance. My hands are clean.
Mike you might want to tend to your own ignorance about this subject.

Your hands are not clean...not in the least.
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