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Old 07-02-2016, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,365 posts, read 4,277,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Actually the "66" are better understood if the apocrypha, both old and that found in the last 75 years or so, is also read to give an appreciation for the wide variety of beliefs that floated around in the first three centuries after Jesus.

And no, I'm not speaking of OT apocrypha found in the Catholic Bible, nor of Mormon literature. I'm speaking of such as the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Judas, both which have been dated to those early centuries. Proof that early christians had already begun wondering when the "kingdom of God" would reappear can be spotted in these interesting words of Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas (I really wanted to put GoT but that has already been claimed in modern times ):
The Story Of The Storytellers - The Gospel Of Thomas | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

So all those "other" books help to establish the multitude of beliefs floating around about Jesus, such an impact His life had made.

Bart Ehrman's Lost Christianities details some of the almost orthodox documents along with some that sound strange and others stranger still.

Cool.
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Old 07-02-2016, 10:36 AM
 
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Matthew was written for Jews, Mark was written for Romans, Luke was written for Greeks, John was written for everyone.

If four of us spent the day at an event, let's say a political rally or a sporting event, then wrote down our experiences, there would be 4 different accounts. It wouldn't mean the accounts were contradictory. Just different people seeing things through different eyes.
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Old 07-02-2016, 01:56 PM
 
34,758 posts, read 8,973,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterseat View Post
Matthew was written for Jews, Mark was written for Romans, Luke was written for Greeks, John was written for everyone.

If four of us spent the day at an event, let's say a political rally or a sporting event, then wrote down our experiences, there would be 4 different accounts. It wouldn't mean the accounts were contradictory. Just different people seeing things through different eyes.
The discrepancies are such that "Eyewitness disagreement" doesn't wash. Nor does the evidence of a common synoptic text support Eyewitness. That old excuse does not stand up anymore.
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Old 07-03-2016, 01:07 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,925 posts, read 9,680,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Excellent posting on the Leap of Faith here. It illustrates the point I make about the drawback of Faith, never mind the invalidity of it. " which can only occur when one reaches the end of their intellectual assessment."

That sounds like what we goddless bastards often claim - that, when you can't find the answer, you just believe what you want. And I mean, what you want - what you would like to believe becomes the truth.

And what we say is that one then stops looking for the correct answer, because you already have one. Now some say that they don't stop looking. Perhaps, but the thing about Faith is that you are then limited to looking within the Box of that Faith. We already konw where that leads - "This is the conclusion - what facts can we find to support it?" It is worse than that of course - Faith requires that the evidence be fiddled to fit the Faith.

Just one example was the Talk on the Mount of Olives, "This generation" and the destruction of the Temple. Because the way it looks seems to be a failure of prophecy, Faith requires that the text be (somewhat selectively) reinterpreted to mean something that fits belief. That generation becomes all humanity, and tasting death becomes some kind of sin metaphor, and the less said about the sacking of the temple, the better.

This faithleaping is seen in trying to wangle the natiivities together, making the resurrection accounts fit ("if it mentions two angels, there was also One...and another one")., weaving the deaths of Judas together, postulating a pre Judas Theudas (Acts) , a pre -temple cleansing Temple cleansing (John) and explaining away a zombie convention and a tomb guard nobody else sees fit to mention. By Random factors, there is even a transfiguration that John has never heard of.

The ingenuity of these explanations is sometimes remarkable, but where they fail totally, (1) we never get any acceptance of what the facts inescapably seem to say. There is instead, well, it is too, too, tiresome to rehearse the apologetic acrobatics engaged in ...or grabbing your hat and stalking off in sulky silence..but that is the problem of relying on Faith for an answer instead of the undoubtedly more flexible but ultimately far, far more useful, certainly more rational and in every way better method of continuing to look for the answers and following the evidence where it leads, not leading the evidence where Faith requires it to go.

(1) as the lack of a transfiguration in John does fail to have a good explanation - the 'wrote from a different point of view/witnesses don't always agree" stock excuses are just laughable there and it shows up the essential inadequacy - to put it mildly - of this Explanation.
Damnably superb old beast!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterseat View Post
If four of us spent the day at an event, let's say a political rally or a sporting event, then wrote down our experiences, there would be 4 different accounts. It wouldn't mean the accounts were contradictory. Just different people seeing things through different eyes.
what if our accounts were being guided by an omnimax deity?
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:15 AM
 
10,428 posts, read 7,522,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
what if our accounts were being guided by an omnimax deity?
Have you ever surrendered and allowed God the Spirit to guide you? Because the Lord guides you doesn't mean you give up free will. What is best is what He wants for you. What He wants for you is best. Follow His guidance we will all become more like Jesus. But we aren't robots. We have individual eyes, hearts, minds. We're not identical.

All of the "discrepancies" that are being brought up here seem to be petty attempts to defend your own rejection of the free gift of salvation. You think you are clever and smarter because of it but it makes me feel sad for you.

Lee Strobel's Case for Christ is one (Jewish) man's journey to disprove Christianity. The investigative reporter who broke the "exploding Pinto gas tank" story in the Chicago paper (Sun?) suddenly had a wife who was now calling herself a Christian. He didn't like it any more than you would. But with all true-hearted people who seek, (most famous scientists included) he examined the evidence and accepted the truth.
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Old 07-03-2016, 11:40 AM
 
34,758 posts, read 8,973,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterseat View Post
Have you ever surrendered and allowed God the Spirit to guide you? Because the Lord guides you doesn't mean you give up free will. What is best is what He wants for you. What He wants for you is best. Follow His guidance we will all become more like Jesus. But we aren't robots. We have individual eyes, hearts, minds. We're not identical.

All of the "discrepancies" that are being brought up here seem to be petty attempts to defend your own rejection of the free gift of salvation. You think you are clever and smarter because of it but it makes me feel sad for you.

Lee Strobel's Case for Christ is one (Jewish) man's journey to disprove Christianity. The investigative reporter who broke the "exploding Pinto gas tank" story in the Chicago paper (Sun?) suddenly had a wife who was now calling herself a Christian. He didn't like it any more than you would. But with all true-hearted people who seek, (most famous scientists included) he examined the evidence and accepted the truth.
I've seen Lee Strobel's argument and it doesn't stand up. I've seen the evidence and it doesn't stand up. I've seen all the accusations tat we are refusing to accept this or that truth, and that doesn't stand up either.


What most especially doesn't doesn't stand up is that the Gospels are a reliable account of Jesus' sayings and doings. If you want to argue the point, this is the right thread.
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Old 07-03-2016, 05:18 PM
 
10,428 posts, read 7,522,898 times
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Oh, wait. Your little avatar byline says you're an atheist. Interesting place for you to be hanging out, isn't it? A Christian forum?

You'd be well served to publish your findings in refuting the gospel. The Bible is a book like no other.

Why don't you give specific examples of how Lee Strobel's evidence doesn't hold up. (it's not really an argument, it's his attempt to DISprove the gospel.) He was an atheist, too. It was in his best interest to prove that it wasn't truth. He was angry that his wife was now one of those Christian wackos.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:08 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,620 posts, read 5,133,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterseat View Post
Oh, wait. Your little avatar byline says you're an atheist. Interesting place for you to be hanging out, isn't it? A Christian forum?

You'd be well served to publish your findings in refuting the gospel. The Bible is a book like no other.

Why don't you give specific examples of how Lee Strobel's evidence doesn't hold up. (it's not really an argument, it's his attempt to DISprove the gospel.) He was an atheist, too. It was in his best interest to prove that it wasn't truth. He was angry that his wife was now one of those Christian wackos.
The problem is the Bible is NOT treated like any other book by people claiming to be believers. We reach all sorts of conclusions when we study the context that Scripture was written in. When we do not--we make the assumption that all our cultural affectations were those of the biblical writers. It certainly was not and grasping that culture simply must be a priority before putting any "spiritual" views into it. Other books receive tremendous critical reviews comparing other existing literature--but hard line "christians" refuse to look at the Bible like any other book--and it works to their detriment.

It isn't important whether someone is an atheist or a theist. What is important is whether the message of Jesus about accepting others and treating them at least as well as oneself has embedded itself in the heart of a person. "Believing" is unnecessary to do that. Acting with Jesus' morality doesn't require "belief."

Now you may wish to argue 'saved' or 'lost' all you wish, but that really isn't clear from Jesus statements as recorded in Scripture. What we can be certain of is that even His words got mixed up or reversed from one gospel to the next:

1) Do not stop him,” Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” (Luke 9:51)
counterpoint:
2) He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.(Matt 12:31)

Either we admit Jesus was mixed up or that the oral traditions that came down to the authors--HEARD IT DIFFERENTLY.

What we have may have been heard from varying traditions, scribes most probably edited some sayings to fit their own cultural viewpoints, and we know for a fact that we don't have everything Jesus said or did which could put a different light on we currently think.

Still there is an overall consistent message of love and forgiveness from the words of Jesus. Best to keep it simple and dump the dogma that too many christians are fond of promoting.
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