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Old 03-20-2016, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,595 posts, read 5,120,460 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotle's Child View Post
RESPONSE:

Have you noticed that nowhere in his Epistles does Paul refer to his alleged Damascus Road experience three version of which Luke tells us about 25 years after the death of Paul.

What would that lead you to believe?
That the story had been preserved in oral tradition and revived by those who knew and respected Paul.

P.S. I'm not overly fond of Paul as I believe some of his letters impaled the religion of Jesus. Probably not knowingly, but he has been the basis for an orthodox Christianity that only marginally resembles the kind of faith and works taught by Jesus. Still, I think his Damascus road experience was real for him. After all, he virtually shed his leopard's spots afterwards. The very errors in the accounts show no conspiracy. Conspiracies always appear perfect on the surface.

If you wish not to believe, that is understandable. You have many fine people in your camp. I still think that accepting Scripture as the flawed views of men of faith is reasonable---whether one finds faith or not, is a reasonable conclusion for non-believers. Faith is a personal committment.

There is only a decision to be made about Christ. I'm not trying to win converts from the lost, I try to keep those claiming to be on board to keep from tipping the boat. Winning souls is a far easier task.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 03-20-2016 at 02:53 PM..
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Old 03-20-2016, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 292,698 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
That the story had been preserved in oral tradition and revived by those who knew and respected Paul.

P.S. I'm not overly fond of Paul as I believe some of his letters impaled the religion of Jesus. Probably not knowingly, but he has been the basis for an orthodox Christianity that only marginally resembles the kind of faith and works taught by Jesus. Still, I think his Damascus road experience was real for him. After all, he virtually shed his leopard's spots afterwards. The very errors in the accounts show no conspiracy. Conspiracies always appear perfect on the surface.

If you wish not to believe, that is understandable. You have many fine people in your camp. I still think that accepting Scripture as the flawed views of men of faith is reasonable---whether one finds faith or not, is a reasonable conclusion for non-believers. Faith is a personal committment.

There is only a decision to be made about Christ. I'm not trying to win converts from the lost, I try to keep those claiming to be on board to keep from tipping the boat. Winning souls is a far easier task.
RESPONSE:

Quote:
That the story had been preserved in oral tradition and revived by those who knew and respected Paul.
So has the legend of Paul Bunyon. But like Paul's Damascus legend, there is no evidence that it's other than just a popular story. Even Paul doesn't speak of it.

But everyone is free to believe in it. Just like Elvis still being alive.

Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 03-20-2016 at 06:52 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 03-20-2016, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 292,698 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
You are assuming that day of preparation for Passover was the day before Passover?
The passover meal was prepared during the passover day and eaten Passover night
The day after Passover is always a sabbath
RESPONSE:

No. The Passover supper was eaten after sundown on the day before Passover (which by Jewish timekeeping was part of the next day (ie. the Passover). The Day of Preparation was the day on which the lambs were butchered. That's probably where John got the idea to make the Day of Preparation the day on which Jesus was crucified as "The Lamb of God" rather than Passover day. Read John's gospel.

Passover was the day after the Day of Preparation and was considered a (special) high sabbath.

Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 03-20-2016 at 06:34 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 03-20-2016, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 292,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Paul didn't have a dream. He had an encounter with the risen Jesus which was in a sense manifested to the men who were with Paul, in that everyone with Paul saw a light and heard a voice which they could not understand. Only to Paul did Jesus make His presence clear.

As well, there was another man, by the name of Ananias, to whom God spoke and commanded him to go meet with Paul because Paul was a chosen instrument of His (Acts 9:10-19).

A internally generated dream is not experienced by others.
RESPONSE: That's because of their imaginary nature.
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Old 03-20-2016, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 292,698 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Paul didn't have a dream. He had an encounter with the risen Jesus which was in a sense manifested to the men who were with Paul, in that everyone with Paul saw a light and heard a voice which they could not understand. Only to Paul did Jesus make His presence clear.

As well, there was another man, by the name of Ananias, to whom God spoke and commanded him to go meet with Paul because Paul was a chosen instrument of His (Acts 9:10-19).

A internally generated dream is not experienced by others.
RESPONSE:

All part of Lukes three yarns written long after Pauls death in 64-67 AD about which Paul says nothing in any of his epistles. Do you recognize a yarn when you encounter one?
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Old 03-20-2016, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,595 posts, read 5,120,460 times
Reputation: 3917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotle's Child View Post
RESPONSE:



So has the legend of Paul Bunyon. But like Paul's Damascus legend, there is no evidence that it's other than just a popular story. Even Paul doesn't speak of it.

But everyone is free to believe in it. Just like Elvis still being alive.
There are plenty of legends about my wife's ancestor David Crockett. My son researched them. Some are certainly fabricated and more are enhanced.

Neither of those facts prove D. Crockett did not exist. In fact, they prove he was quite remarkable.

That is the witness of Scripture. Somebody named Jesus must have been a tremendously charismatic individual to prompt all the writings about Him. In addition, even today we have non-believers who are tremendous students of the Bible and believe, if nothing else, that Jesus was a figure who affected people with either love or hate. Bart Ehrman, Christian turned agnostic, is one. Reza Aslan, a Muslim with a major and advanced degrees in religious history (his "sociology" degree focused on biblical sociology according to his professor at Santa Clara*) is another. Both have very scholarly works regarding Jesus and biblical times--but neither one "believes," in Jesus and can find plenty of Scriptural difficulties.

I had an experience as a young man myself, but I rarely spend time talking about it. But that, and a later negative experience have affected me so that I cannot escape the Hound of Heaven.

So there are plenty of people that understand the problems of Scripture but who do not discard the idea that Jesus was alive and impacted many lives during His ministry, if not His life.

I repeat Aslan's final words in his terrific book, Zealot,
Quote:
Because the one thing any comprehensive study of the historical Jesus should hopefully reveal is that Jesus of Nazareth--Jesus the man---is every bit as compelling, charismatic, and praiseworthy as Jesus the Christ. He is, in short, someone worth believing in.
Aslan, Reza, Zealot, Aslan Media, Inc., 2013, pg. 216.

He concludes his book with 63 pages (in a standard size hardback) of chapter notes and bibliography. Hardly a man who pens off the top of his head.

Wikipedia reports his educational background as:
  • B.A in religion, Santa Clara University
  • M.T.S in theology, Harvard
  • M.F.A in fiction, University of Iowa
  • Ph.D in sociology, University of California, Santa Barbara
Aslan HAS made enemies of New Atheists by criticizing them as armchair critics without any religious studies background to support their views, like Richard Dawkins. He contrasted them to the "philosophical atheism" of earlier thinkers who "were experts in religion, and so they were able to offer critiques of it that came from a place of knowledge, from a sophistication of education, of research.

*
Quote:
Mark Juergensmeyer, who despite acknowledging their departments "don’t have a degree in sociology of religions as such" but he "doesn’t have a problem with Aslan’s characterization of his doctorate, noting... [Aslan] did most of his course work in religion" and his arrangement of getting Aslan out of the religious studies department into sociology department "was undertaken to get Aslan out of time-consuming required language courses"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Aslan

Last edited by Wardendresden; 03-20-2016 at 11:02 PM..
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Old 03-21-2016, 04:27 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,552 posts, read 7,007,722 times
Reputation: 1604
^
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Old 03-21-2016, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 292,698 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
You are assuming that day of preparation for Passover was the day before Passover?
The passover meal was prepared during the passover day and eaten Passover night
The day after Passover is always a sabbath
RESPONSE:

The Day of Preparation was the day preceeding the Passover. As Jews recon time, a new day began after sundown. The lambs to be eaten at that evening meal were ritually butchered on the afternoon of the Day of Preparation. Thus Passover began on the day of Preparation at which time the Passove meal was eaten.

According to John's Gosepl Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation during the time the Lambs were sacrificed. Hence "The Lamb of God" saying.

Jesus did not eat the Passover meal or institute the Eucharist in John's Gospel because he was already dead.
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Old 03-21-2016, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 292,698 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
There are plenty of legends about my wife's ancestor David Crockett. My son researched them. Some are certainly fabricated and more are enhanced.

Neither of those facts prove D. Crockett did not exist. In fact, they prove he was quite remarkable.

That is the witness of Scripture. Somebody named Jesus must have been a tremendously charismatic individual to prompt all the writings about Him. In addition, even today we have non-believers who are tremendous students of the Bible and believe, if nothing else, that Jesus was a figure who affected people with either love or hate. Bart Ehrman, Christian turned agnostic, is one. Reza Aslan, a Muslim with a major and advanced degrees in religious history (his "sociology" degree focused on biblical sociology according to his professor at Santa Clara*) is another. Both have very scholarly works regarding Jesus and biblical times--but neither one "believes," in Jesus and can find plenty of Scriptural difficulties.

I had an experience as a young man myself, but I rarely spend time talking about it. But that, and a later negative experience have affected me so that I cannot escape the Hound of Heaven.

So there are plenty of people that understand the problems of Scripture but who do not discard the idea that Jesus was alive and impacted many lives during His ministry, if not His life.

I repeat Aslan's final words in his terrific book, Zealot,
Aslan, Reza, Zealot, Aslan Media, Inc., 2013, pg. 216.

He concludes his book with 63 pages (in a standard size hardback) of chapter notes and bibliography. Hardly a man who pens off the top of his head.

Wikipedia reports his educational background as:
  • B.A in religion, Santa Clara University
  • M.T.S in theology, Harvard
  • M.F.A in fiction, University of Iowa
  • Ph.D in sociology, University of California, Santa Barbara
Aslan HAS made enemies of New Atheists by criticizing them as armchair critics without any religious studies background to support their views, like Richard Dawkins. He contrasted them to the "philosophical atheism" of earlier thinkers who "were experts in religion, and so they were able to offer critiques of it that came from a place of knowledge, from a sophistication of education, of research.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Aslan
RESPONSE:

Perhaps you should reread my original post. I am not claiming that Jesus did not exist. I'm saying that the Damascus Road experience is only reported by Luke writing about 80 AD. It is not reported in any of Paul's writings.

Paul's conversion and supposed vision of Jesus occurred three years after Jesus death. Paul never knew Jesus in the flesh.
Paul may have had a vision, a dream, or a hallucination.
Paul may have had such regarding the Resurrected Jesus, but he never reported any Damascus Road conversion

Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 03-21-2016 at 08:55 AM..
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Old 03-21-2016, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 292,698 times
Reputation: 46
Default Jesus, a real person but there's no proof of a Resurrection

Repeating the previous post:

Paul's conversion and supposed vision of Jesus occurred three years after Jesus death. Paul never knew Jesus in the flesh.
Paul may have had a vision, a dream, or a hallucination.[/b] Paul may have had such regarding the Resurrected Jesus, but he never reported any Damascus Road conversion

Adding to the previous post.

Jesus was an itinerant preacher who was executed for insurrection. Historical records indicate that is so. But no historical records exist reporting any Resurrection. The first written report we have is by Paul written in 55 A.D. or about 25 years after the alleged event and the story grew with Mark, Matthew and Luke, and John's gospels.
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