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- †. Luke 13:4-5 . . And what about the eighteen men who died when a tower of Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem? No, and I tell you again that unless you repent, you will likewise perish.
The koiné Greek word for "tower" in that passage is purgos (poor'-gos) which is an ambiguous word that can mean not only an isolated structure like a skyscraper; but also a special battlement which protrudes from the face of a castle's curtain wall-- consisting of crenellations, merlons, and machicolations --providing occupants a tactical advantage for observing and defending the curtain wall's exterior face. Sometimes though, purgos were simply architectural facades that made otherwise insipid stone walls aesthetically pleasing to the eye.
In the days prior to steel reinforcing bar and structural steel beams, purgos (which were often constructed of either stones or bricks or wood) weren't all that stable, and sometimes crumbled; thus detaching themselves from the curtain wall like an old swallow's nest; resulting in pieces raining down on whoever happened to be standing below. The tower depicted in Luke was possibly a decorative part of an architectural enclosure surrounding the pool of Siloam. (cf. John 9:7)
The people who were killed when that tower collapsed, weren't killed by the hand of God. No, they were just simply in the wrong place at the wrong time; viz: it was just dumb luck. It's like when people plan all month for a camping trip in the mountains. Upon arrival, they set up camp; and after lunch, walk a hiking trail. Just then, a tree limb, that's been silently growing in the forest for who knows how many years, suddenly decides to snap off and fall to earth right then; subsequently killing one of the campers just as they walk under it.
One minute earlier and it would have missed. One minute later and it would have missed. But no, the limb falls right on cue as if the forces of nature conspired to hold that tree limb in place till just the right moment; waiting for that one specific person to walk under it.
In a similar incident Friday, Feb 19, 2010 --a centuries-old Mosque minaret in Meknes Morocco collapsed and fell into a crowd of worshippers during prayer time, killing 41.
Saturday, June 27, 2010, a 6-month-old baby girl was killed and her mother seriously injured when the pair were struck by a falling tree branch in New York City's Central Park Zoo. The girl's father was taking their picture near the sea lion exhibit when a branch above them suddenly snapped off and fell.
On Tuesday, July 3, 2007; nineteen year-old Ramiro Gonzalez was returning home to Nyssa Oregon from a week-end honeymoon in northern California with his bride Idalia asleep in the back seat when their 1997 Pontiac Grand Am hit a cow twenty miles east of Burns. The Pontiac went off the road, through a fence, and burst into flames. Idalia escaped with only minor injuries, but Ramiro died at the Ste. Charles Medical Center in Bend the very next day.
Ramiro and his bride didn't get to live in a home of their own for even one single minute of their marriage-- never had a baby, never joined the PTA, never saved for college, never went to ballet lessons, nor to soccer or little league, never went on family picnics, never took home movies and photos at Christmas, Easter, or birthdays, never went to the beach and built sand castles --no, their entire future, and all their dreams of family life, were shattered in an instant by a lame-brained bovine; and Ramiro wasn't even 20 years old yet.
March 20, 2008; fifty-seven year old Judy Kay Zagorski, of Pigeon, Michigan, was sitting in the front seat of her father's boat going 25 knots on the Atlantic Ocean side of Vaca Key in Florida, when a Spotted Eagle Ray, with a wingspan of 5 to 6 feet; leaped up out of the water-- for who knows what reason --and collided with Zagorski, knocking her backwards onto the deck of the boat. She died from the impact. Judy's sister, standing next to her, was not injured.
On a November morning in 1998, Alan Pakula climbed into his Volvo station wagon and began the 100-mile drive from Manhattan to his Long Island house. The acclaimed movie director of Sophie's Choice, All The President's Men, and The Pelican Brief, had made that trip countless times with no incident.
As the 70 year-old Pakula neared exit 49 on the Long Island Expressway just before noon, the tires of a vehicle ahead of him flipped a 7-foot piece of steel rod into the air. Within seconds, the rod shot through Pakula's windshield, smashing into his forehead, killing him almost instantly.
Death often comes when people least expect it. As a rule, they don't usually get up in the morning planning it to be their last day on earth. The 169,752 killed, and 127,294 listed as missing, in more than eleven countries by the tsunami of 2004, were taken by surprise, and given no warning it was to be their last day on earth.
The 2,829 people who perished in a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, and the 189 who died in the Pentagon, didn't go in to work expecting their lives to end before lunch that day. No, people's lives often end while they still have obligations and commitments, aspirations, things to do, places to go, and people to see; when a car accident, train wreck, act of nature, plane crash, crime, heart attack, or stroke puts an abrupt end to every plan they ever made.
Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010, a 7.0 earthquake struck Port au Prince Haiti right out of the blue subsequently causing the loss of more than 200,000 lives. A similar act of nature on March 11, 2011, left 25,000 dead and/or missing in Japan.
Okeechobee woman Dawn Johnston, 38, was killed Wednesday June 30, 2010 after part of a portable toilet crashed through her car's windshield. Dawn was driving south on SR 15 shortly after 11 a.m. when two portable toilets fell from the trailer of a pickup truck traveling north,. The portable toilets shattered when they hit the road, and a piece of one of them crashed through the woman's windshield, striking her. Johnston's car then veered off the road and collided with a tree.
A rain-saturated hillside above the Stillaguamish River on the outskirts of the rural town of Oso in the State of Washington gave way March 22, 2014 leaving behind a current death toll of 41 souls. The landslide happened to suddenly and so rapidly that nobody saw it coming and/or had the slightest chance of getting out of the way. Listed among the dead and missing was a four-month old infant.
Freak incidents like those listed above can happen to anybody in the form of a stray bullet from a drive-by, lightening strike, gas explosion, choking on a piece of meat, electrocution, earthquake, a drunk driver, a fall in the bath tub; bricks dropped from an overpass, or any number of out-of-the-blue surprises. I don't think Christ was saying that repentance will protect people from dying in an unexpected incident, but rather, that if they don't start thinking about the afterlife now, while they have the chance; then they risk being caught off guard by sudden death where there will be no time to think; and they'll find themselves suddenly thrust into the afterlife a lot sooner than they ever expected.
I was taught in catechism that repentance always means sorrow and regret for one's sins; but I don't think that's what Christ was getting at.
The koiné Greek word for "repent" in Christ's statement is metanoeo (met an-o-eh'-o) which means: to think differently; viz: to reconsider-- in other words: to change one's mind and/or change one's direction.
I was also taught in catechism that repentance and confession of one's sins are joined at the hip; so to speak. But confession of sins is not the emphasis in Luke 13:4-5; metanoeo is the emphasis.
Christ preceded the statement recorded in Luke 13:4-5 with another like it.
†. Luke 13:1-3 . .There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them: Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
The record doesn't explain why Pilate executed those men in particular; nor even where the executions took place. But just for brevity's sake, I'll assume for now that those particular men were known insurrectionists, and the executions took place on the grounds of the Temple compound in Jerusalem while the men were there to worship. In other words: the men were pounced upon in a place they would never suspect; and Pilate's soldiers sprung on the Galileans so suddenly and so efficiently that the men had no chance to either escape or to defend themselves.
It's at a time like that when your religion of choice had better be the right one because you'll have neither time nor opportunity to reconsider and switch to another.
†. Ecc 9:10-12 . . For the time of mischance comes to all. And a man cannot even know his time. As fishes are enmeshed in a fatal net, and as birds are trapped in a snare, so men are caught at the time of calamity, when it comes upon them without warning.
Definitely me, dear. I do not come from a genetically long-lived family. My parents died in their early sixties, my baby brother died in his fifties. It seems we fall apart sooner than others. I am more than a decade past my genetic expiration date.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
Hmmm. Okay, well I will try to have more respect for my elders.
Well, hang in there. We have a few issues to sort out before you move on.
I thought we were saying exactly the same thing, or very close to the same thing, at least.
I think post #32 does a good job of making a clear-cut distinction between spirit and spiritual. But then of course I would think that way because I wrote it.
I once heard President Obama reply to criticism with almost those exact same words; viz: he didn't deny the truth of the criticism, but instead employed the age-old tactic of accusing his critic of the very same things; which, I guess in his mind; somehow mitigated his own culpability; but the honorable response would have been for him to man-up and admit his conduct was unbecoming rather than stoop to recriminations.
It's very common for people to respond to criticism the same way Mr. Obama did. It's all the same as saying: Who are you to talk? Well; regardless of who someone is to talk, if the criticism is true; then it stands; viz: recriminations are futile. All they do is pull someone down with you so you don't go down alone.
I predict there's going to be a quite a bit of resentment and indignation at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when the dead see people called to testify against them who they know to be guilty of the very same things for which they are on trial for their lives.
So; how might I describe human nature? I think I could accurately describe it as both judgmental and defensive.
†. Rom 2:15 . .Their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another.
I think post #32 does a good job of making a clear-cut distinction between spirit and spiritual. But then of course I would think that way because I wrote it.
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Well, apparently it didn't do a good enough job, because my reading comprehension is generally pretty good. I believe that people frequently use the words "physical" and "mortal" interchangeably, when they actually don't mean the same thing at all. When I use the word "physical," I mean nothing more than "corporeal," "tangible" or "material." I don't believe the word to a synonym for "mortal" at all. An immortal body, such as Christ had following His resurrection and at the time of His ascension into Heaven was both physical (in that it had a visible and tangible form) and immortal. It was a "spirit body" in that it was a body no longer subject to injury, disease, deformity or death. It was immortal rather than mortal. Do you agree with any of what I just said?
Well, apparently it didn't do a good enough job, because my reading comprehension is generally pretty good. I believe that people frequently use the words "physical" and "mortal" interchangeably, when they actually don't mean the same thing at all. When I use the word "physical," I mean nothing more than "corporeal," "tangible" or "material." I don't believe the word to a synonym for "mortal" at all. An immortal body, such as Christ had following His resurrection and at the time of His ascension into Heaven was both physical (in that it had a visible and tangible form) and immortal. It was a "spirit body" in that it was a body no longer subject to injury, disease, deformity or death. It was immortal rather than mortal. Do you agree with any of what I just said?
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According to...hell never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365 nonstop...it's apparent that souls never stop cascading into the abyss in an endless procession...
According to the misguided/deluded/liars.
Anyone who claims to have seen either the alleged 'Hell' or the alleged 'Heaven' is speaking bovine fecality.
Even if one believes the 'biblical' stories, the text states in a number of places that the dead 'sleep', unaware, until the alleged 'Second Coming'. All of those NDE 'experiences' are horsepuckey.
According to the story, no one goes *anywhere* until the 'resurrection' and 'judgment day'.
It was supposed to be "...before this generation has passed..."
Nearly 2,000 years later, still a no-show...George Jones has a better record, at least he showed up once in a while.
Whatever. I don't know what's eating you, but I've given you absolutely no reason to refuse to discuss this with me. But, have it your way. If you're not interested in actual dialogue, I don't know why you're here in the first place.
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