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Old 02-23-2017, 01:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
[LEFT]There's little or no good proof that Irenaeus held the majority opinion. Just for old time sake, I'll pull a rogdertutt and list a bunch of stuff from Tentmaker! But its all based on quotes.


Early Church Father Quotes about the number of UR believers:


The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great


There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)


I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome[/LEFT]


Early Church Father Quotes about UR:


And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)
[LEFT]

These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19


In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. --St. Jerome, 331-420


The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428


Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)


Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness ...either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.--Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)


That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you have paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. --Peter Chrysologus, 435


"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion. The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints." – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)


Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church


Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up... The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. --Jerome


In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord's passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. --Didymus, 370 AD


While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. --St. Chrysostom, 398 AD


Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in he fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all. –Didymus the Blind


In the present life God is in all, for His nature is without limits, but he is not all in all. But in the coming life, when mortality is at an end and immortality granted, and sin has no longer any place, God will be all in all. For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity. --Theodoret the Blessed, 387-458


..that that's just a few without even using Origen or even Clement of Alexandria
[/LEFT]
Most of the men you quoted came long after the time of Irenaeus. In Irenaeus's time, the church majority still held the belief handed down by the apostles that the punishment was eternal.
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Most of the men you quoted came long after the time of Irenaeus. In Irenaeus's time, the church still held the belief handed down by the apostles that the punishment was eternal.
No, Mike, the REASON Irenaeus addressed the concept is that it was widely held and opposed to HIS views.
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Not according to Irenaeus. Irenaeus lived ca. A.D.125-202 which was well before the time of Augustine. Irenaeus wrote Against Heresies around A.D. 175-185. In it he writes the following.
Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.

1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one," and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. [Bolded mine]

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 1 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Irenaeus clarifies his statement of everlasting fire in book four of Against Heresies. In chapter 4, section 2, he writes,
2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous-language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity," these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong, ) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word. [Bolded mine]

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 4 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Irenaeus states that the belief of the church, received from the apostles, is that the punishment is everlasting and not merely temporal.

The Greek word for temporal is πρόσκαιρος - proskairos and refers to things that are temporary, transitory, lasting only for a time. This is in contrast with things which are permanent, eternal. Irenaeus stated that the belief of the church (his words don't imply a minority of believers) during his time (before the time of Augustine), is that the punishment is not temporal, but is eternal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Most of the men you quoted came long after the time of Irenaeus. In Irenaeus's time, the church majority still held the belief handed down by the apostles that the punishment was eternal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
No, Mike, the REASON Irenaeus addressed the concept is that it was widely held and opposed to HIS views.
Irenaeus was not a Universalist. His view on eternal punishment was that of the church in his day. Quoting him;
Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter XXVIII (28), section 3;

For the sesame heretics already mentioned by us have fallen away from themselves, by accusing the Lord, in whom they say that they believe. For those points to which they call attention with regard to the God who then awarded temporal punishments to the unbelieving, and smote the Egyptians, while He saved those that were obedient; these same [facts, I say, ] shall nevertheless repeat themselves in the Lord, who judges for eternity those whom He doth judge, and lets go free for eternity those whom He does let go free: [Bolding mine]

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 4 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Irenaeus himself was saying that the punishment is eternal. But even if he had been a Universalist, his statement still holds true that the majority belief in his day was that which the apostles handed down; that the punishment is eternal.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Most of the men you quoted came long after the time of Irenaeus. In Irenaeus's time, the church majority still held the belief handed down by the apostles that the punishment was eternal.
Most of them yes, not all of them. Heck maybe I should have included Origen and Clement of Alexandria since they were earlier. Live an learn


Anyways, Its interesting you cite Irenaeus as agreeing with you when its actually quite debatable whether he believed in ET or Annihilation. For example: Deprived of continuance: Irenaeus the conditionalist | Rethinking Hell Besides, I don't see any hard proof in your post that he held the "majority" opinion. I know Tertullian was also held this view but he was a vengeful and vindictive eventual Montanist so I don't take much of what he says with any authority. Some say Justin Martyr believed like you do based on his claimed words before his execution, but other quotes from him give the impression that he was an annihilationist. Anyways, if you are going to prove that your eternal separation and/or torment belief was the dominant belief of the early Church, you'll have to do better to convince me.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Most of them yes, not all of them. Heck maybe I should have included Origen and Clement of Alexandria since they were earlier. Live an learn


Anyways, Its interesting you cite Irenaeus as agreeing with you when its actually quite debatable whether he believed in ET or Annihilation. For example: Deprived of continuance: Irenaeus the conditionalist | Rethinking Hell Besides, I don't see any hard proof in your post that he held the "majority" opinion. I know Tertullian was also held this view but he was a vengeful and vindictive eventual Montanist so I don't take much of what he says with any authority. Some say Justin Martyr believed like you do based on his claimed words before his execution, but other quotes from him give the impression that he was an annihilationist. Anyways, if you are going to prove that your eternal separation and/or torment belief was the dominant belief of the early Church, you'll have to do better to convince me.
I gave a direct quote from Irenaeus himself in post #10 in which he gave his personal belief. I also previously gave a direct quote from Irenaeus concerning the majority belief of the early church in his time. Whether or not you are willing to accept what he said is your affair.
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
No, Mike, the REASON Irenaeus addressed the concept is that it was widely held and opposed to HIS views.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Irenaeus was not a Universalist. His view on eternal punishment was that of the church in his day. Quoting him;
Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter XXVIII (28), section 3;

For the sesame heretics already mentioned by us have fallen away from themselves, by accusing the Lord, in whom they say that they believe. For those points to which they call attention with regard to the God who then awarded temporal punishments to the unbelieving, and smote the Egyptians, while He saved those that were obedient; these same [facts, I say, ] shall nevertheless repeat themselves in the Lord, who judges for eternity those whom He doth judge, and lets go free for eternity those whom He does let go free: [Bolding mine]

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 4 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Irenaeus himself was saying that the punishment is eternal. But even if he had been a Universalist, his statement still holds true that the majority belief in his day was that which the apostles handed down; that the punishment is eternal.
I have to wonder if you actually read my post, Mike555. I certainly didn't say that Irenaeus was a universalist. I said that the REASON he posted what you cited is BECAUSE the "heresy" named was widely held in the church and OPPOSED to HIS view.


Why do YOU think he posted the polemic?
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I gave a direct quote from Irenaeus himself in post #10 in which he gave his personal belief. I also previously gave a direct quote from Irenaeus concerning the majority belief of the early church in his time. Whether or not you are willing to accept what he said is your affair.
Apparently you didn't read the link I put in there that discussed way he might have infact been an annihilationist based on his other writings. There's little question that there were plenty of early Church fathers who didn't believe in UR, but whether or not it was the majority belief and whether or not they agreed with you on ET/ES are the bigger questions here. Annihilation may be more friendly to fundamentalist belief than UR, but a larger number of annihilationists in the "early early church" definitely makes a difference in the debate as a whole, especially when they are being quoted as if they supported ET or ES with absolute certainty.
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I have to wonder if you actually read my post, Mike555. I certainly didn't say that Irenaeus was a universalist. I said that the REASON he posted what you cited is BECAUSE the "heresy" named was widely held in the church and OPPOSED to HIS view.


Why do YOU think he posted the polemic?
If you are agreeing that Irenaeus's view was that of eternal punishment then why post and say 'No Mike.'

I posted the following in post #8.
''Most of the men you quoted came long after the time of Irenaeus. In Irenaeus's time, the church still held the belief handed down by the apostles that the punishment was eternal.''
To which you replied in post #9,
''No, Mike, the REASON Irenaeus addressed the concept is that it was widely held and opposed to HIS views.''
I didn't even state a reason in post #8 for you to reply ''No'' to.

Irenaeus stated that the belief of the church was that which had been handed down by the apostles. It was the belief to which he himself held as shown by his statement to that effect.
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Apparently you didn't read the link I put in there that discussed way he might have infact been an annihilationist based on his other writings. There's little question that there were plenty of early Church fathers who didn't believe in UR, but whether or not it was the majority belief and whether or not they agreed with you on ET/ES are the bigger questions here. Annihilation may be more friendly to fundamentalist belief than UR, but a larger number of annihilationists in the "early early church" definitely makes a difference in the debate as a whole, especially when they are being quoted as if they supported ET or ES with absolute certainty.
Even if you try to argue that Irenaeus believed in annihilation, then since his view was that of the early church, you then must argue that the early church of Irenaeus's day was that of annihilation which argues against your claim that the majority of the early church of Irenaeus's day believed in Universalism.

Irenaeus's statement,
''The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] . . . He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire;''
does not lend itself to a minority viewpoint.
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Old 02-23-2017, 06:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Even if you try to argue that Irenaeus believed in annihilation, then since his view was that of the early church, you then must argue that the early church of Irenaeus's day was that of annihilation which argues against your claim that the majority of the early church of Irenaeus's day believed in Universalism.

Irenaeus's statement,
''The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] . . . He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire;''
does not lend itself to a minority viewpoint.
Actually, I haven't claimed anything, I just posted a bunch of quotes putting certain ideas into question Based on the quotes I posted, would you consider it a possibility that the UR was the majority belief in the Early Church period between perhaps 200 AD to 550AD (Before Emperor Justinian threw a hissy fit about it and closed the famous schools that supported it)?


When it comes to the "Early EARLY Church" or whatever, I'm not sure what to think about what was the majority opinion. I've shown a few early quotes that seem to support it but overall there is not as much written theology materials eternal salvation in that time period from what I've studied. Irenaeus' statement is certainly not in favor of it, but his opinion may or may not represent the majority. It certainly doesn't prove that UR was considered heresy.
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