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Old 03-27-2017, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
1,335 posts, read 797,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
Quid pro quo: Is what I said Biblical or not?

To answer your question, I can go between belief and disbelief because I have personal testimony to draw off of as well as knowledge of what caused that testimony. Which one is correct? This forum stated we had to assume there was a God for sake of argument. I don't mind the word God. It's religion using people I object too.
Hmm, OK, so I get that you're an atheist; I don't understand how that connects with living for Jesus 100%. That's the part I didn't get about your post. I guess I'm asking, how are you as an atheist living for Jesus 100%? Thank you and sorry I have not understood whatever you're getting at yet.

I did scroll through all the pages of the thread but it appears you just had the one post so sorry if I'm not aware of a cross-thread or something. I re-read your post a couple times and I'm not sure what in there you're asking me to validate as Biblical or non Biblical. So to speak generally, I don't personally believe you can be saved without repenting of your sins and accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal Savior.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:12 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,808,279 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
Universalism means you don't need faith in Christ to be saved, you are saved anyway. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
This only shows you know nothing about Christian Universal Reconcilation and/or Christian Universalism. You are wrong from very first line.Belief in Christ is a requirement in most forms of it (maybe not for Unitarian Universalism but that's very different) and it will happen at some point in eternity for everyone...but since I don't have time to get in a long debate today, I'll let Roger finish you off if he wants.
wonder why when somebody of a different religion states in this forum like:
The law tells you to stop believing in Jesus and definitely stop preaching it...
the adamant Universalist doesn't dog such person with equal measure with counter posts like:
Belief in Christ is a requirement in most forms of it (maybe not for Unitarian Universalism but that's very different) and it will happen at some point in eternity for everyone..
unless maybe ... maybe ... in fact Hawkins is correct despite the universalist dogma rhetoric.

Last edited by twin.spin; 03-27-2017 at 01:35 PM..
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
689 posts, read 415,771 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
This only shows you know nothing about Christian Universal Reconcilation and/or Christian Universalism. You are wrong from very first line. Belief in Christ is a requirement in most forms of it (maybe not for Unitarian Universalism but that's very different) and it will happen at some point in eternity for everyone...but since I don't have time to get in a long debate today, I'll let Roger finish you off if he wants.
You are contradicting yourself (and you have to). Universalism means everyone including those choose not to believe Jesus will be saved in the end.

Why don't you just answer the question more directly.

If someone doesn't believe Jesus Christ, will he be saved or not in accordance to Universalism?
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:53 PM
 
4,564 posts, read 2,264,983 times
Reputation: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
Mat_23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Mat_23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Mar_5:7 And crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me."
Mar_9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mar_9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
Mar_9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Luk_8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."
Luk_12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Luk_16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk_16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
Jas_3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.
2Pe_2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Rev_9:5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone.
Rev_11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
Rev_18:7 As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, 'I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.'
Rev_18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."
Rev_18:15 The merchants of these wares, who gained wealth from her, will stand far off, in fear of her torment, weeping and mourning aloud,
.... and Psalm_ 92:7 B mentions the wicked will be destroyed forever
Heb_6:4-6 mentions it is impossible to revive some to repentance
Mat_12:32 mentions that there is an unforgivable sin
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:56 PM
 
4,564 posts, read 2,264,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Amen! There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Yes, easy to see that there are two (2) choices to either ' repent ' or 'perish ' ( be destroyed forever) - 2nd Peter 3:9
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Old 03-27-2017, 03:10 PM
 
1,472 posts, read 1,014,239 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
You are contradicting yourself (and you have to). Universalism means everyone including those choose not to believe Jesus will be saved in the end.

Why don't you just answer the question more directly.

If someone doesn't believe Jesus Christ, will he be saved or not in accordance to Universalism?
No, they will not, but the bible says "Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess" and "but every man in his own order" through eternity so that's not the problem according to Christian Universalism. Roger is a believer in "Christian Universalism" which means its Christian Centered. How about actually learning about it rather than freaking out every time you here the word 'universalism' like every other fundamentalist has been programed to do?


Roger, get back here and finish this debate! I don't have time for this!
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:56 PM
 
1,401 posts, read 389,842 times
Reputation: 781
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF

ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment.”
Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.

CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
“Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will.”
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"

THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.


NONE OF THESE ARE CORRECT.........man twisting scripture. If you are in anguish and missing something, it is that God shaped place in your heart. Only God can change a life......fortunately HE wants to do exactly that if we could just clear all the junk out we've been deceived with over the years.

HELL IS REAL AND SO IS HEAVEN......no one wants to go to hell and most think they don't deserve it. The law came along to show us we DO deserve it because we can't keep it and sin causes death. The law is useful if used correctly, and that is to drive us all to Jesus because we realize we need a Savior. But the law ONLY condemns.......Jesus through your faith and trust placed in Him will save you eternally.

We are born spiritually dead........our problem is exactly that we're dead and we need life. Guess who has that life?

Jesus wants us to know exactly who He is and what HE did for us and it is contained in that simple gospel He gave to Paul. Know that you're a sinner......believe that Jesus died for your sins, was dead and buried (physically) and rose to new LIFE so that He can give you that same eternal life and you're saved forever. Never worry about it again because Jesus said He would send a helper, and that is the Spirit who will now come and dwell with you forever. So no one goes to hell unless they reject the free gift that Jesus gives.......all that read this are now responsible for it and without excuse.......make the right choice
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:43 PM
 
1,472 posts, read 1,014,239 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
NONE OF THESE ARE CORRECT.........man twisting scripture. If you are in anguish and missing something, it is that God shaped place in your heart. Only God can change a life......fortunately HE wants to do exactly that if we could just clear all the junk out we've been deceived with over the years.

HELL IS REAL AND SO IS HEAVEN......no one wants to go to hell and most think they don't deserve it. The law came along to show us we DO deserve it because we can't keep it and sin causes death. The law is useful if used correctly, and that is to drive us all to Jesus because we realize we need a Savior. But the law ONLY condemns.......Jesus through your faith and trust placed in Him will save you eternally.

We are born spiritually dead........our problem is exactly that we're dead and we need life. Guess who has that life?

Jesus wants us to know exactly who He is and what HE did for us and it is contained in that simple gospel He gave to Paul. Know that you're a sinner......believe that Jesus died for your sins, was dead and buried (physically) and rose to new LIFE so that He can give you that same eternal life and you're saved forever. Never worry about it again because Jesus said He would send a helper, and that is the Spirit who will now come and dwell with you forever. So no one goes to hell unless they reject the free gift that Jesus gives.......all that read this are now responsible for it and without excuse.......make the right choice
You do realize that what you just said is just a philosophically sugar (or shame) coated version of Arminian belief, right?...The fact is, God made the rules of whatever sin costs and this is HIS system no matter how much you try to make it sound like we somehow born deserving to be tortured for eternity because we are not perfect. Our born perfection was never apart of Gods plan and he knew we would need a savior from the beginning as Paul says. The fundamentalist system still results in God creating a world where he knew the vast majority of creation would be endlessly tortured, lost, or annihilated. Sorry buddy, Rogers logic still applies.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:25 PM
 
4,021 posts, read 968,927 times
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most of the veiws I suspect might have some,or part of the elements of truth to them. which sometimes just makes things a better lie .
the question probably is really what you are saved from and what you are not saved from.
what we know for most sure is God is not mocked as man sows so shall he reap.
so all needs to work out your salvation now while you can and then you don't have to get only degrees of salvation or degrees of reaping what you have sown.
I believe no real forms of "universal salvation" ..
though at the beginning of the millennium it may appear that millions who were not christians appear to get in.. but their true colors will show who they really are ( and why he has to use that rod of iron) so they will make their rebellion known at least by the end of the 1000 years and the end of the age of mankind's rule.. when satan is let loose again, and the Father ends them all by His presence at HIS coming to earth . but all who take advantage of that time to be ready in their heart and soul to dwell in the Father's presence , they will live, I will bet he is merciful to the humble who after 1000 years remain humble .
the parable of the wedding feast when he kicks out those who didn't change their clothes .. would be the appropriate parable.. but I don't think many even go to that point because most will be rebellious way before that 1000 year "last day" begins .

Last edited by n..Xuipa; 03-27-2017 at 09:53 PM..
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Old 03-28-2017, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Panama City, FL
2,569 posts, read 725,377 times
Reputation: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
You do realize that what you just said is just a philosophically sugar (or shame) coated version of Arminian belief, right?...The fact is, God made the rules of whatever sin costs and this is HIS system no matter how much you try to make it sound like we somehow born deserving to be tortured for eternity because we are not perfect. Our born perfection was never apart of Gods plan and he knew we would need a savior from the beginning as Paul says. The fundamentalist system still results in God creating a world where he knew the vast majority of creation would be endlessly tortured, lost, or annihilated. Sorry buddy, Rogers logic still applies.


No one can be saved unless God has chosen them to salvation - the book of Romans is clear on that point.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. The scriptures are clear on that point as well.

God will accomplish all his desire - no arguing with that.


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