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Old 08-14-2017, 10:15 PM
 
427 posts, read 95,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post


Not according to Irenaeus. Irenaeus lived ca. A.D.125-202 which was well before the time of Augustine. Irenaeus wrote Against Heresies around A.D. 175-185. In it he writes the following.

Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.

1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one," and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. [Bolded mine]

That says:

1. "The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth"

That's most likely a lie. Probably several continents at that time had never even heard the name of Christ.

2. "has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith"

In the opinion of one man. Based on what evidence? His interpretation of the Scriptures? In line with the school of Rome that believed in endless torments? While of the other 5 schools, 4 of them believed from Scripture that all people would be saved?

He's not saying the church in the whole world believes what he is about to say. If he was that would be another lie, if by it he means what you think he does. For there were other opinions, as i show below.

3. "[She believes]"

This is in brackets because it was not in the original text, but added?

4. In the next paragraph (#2) he includes the churches of Egypt, yet the school of Alexandria there was universalist in its beliefs at the time of Irenaeus. So that could be another lie.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 1 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

5. In the same paragraph (#2) he claims none of the "rulers in the Churches... teach doctrines different from these...". Even if that were true, which we have no evidence for, & he provides none himself, it doesn't mean the majority of individual Christians accepted that view. For example, how do we know that most Christians in Alexandria didn't follow the beliefs of the universalist school there?

6. Your own quote of him in paragraph #1 does not prove what you think. For how do we know the original word translated "everlasting" is not the same one that universalists believed in when associated with punishment, i.e. a temporary corrective punishment? You didn't provide the original language words.

Additionally, he uses words from Scripture that universalists often associate with universalism, such as ""to gather all things in one," and "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess".

So his statement could just as easily support universalism, as you posted it in English.

7. Furthermore, none of the early church creeds up to at least around 500 A.D. said anything about anyone getting endless punishment, not even the devil or demons. That includes the Apostle's creed, dated about 180 AD, at the time of Irenaeus.

8. Regarding early church universalism, including some at the time of Irenaeus, or earlier:

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

"I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

"It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

"Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/0...art-coming-in/
http://tsj.sagepub.com/content/76/4/827.extract

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

http://www.isns.us/directory/europe/ramelliilaria.htm

Last edited by ClementofA; 08-14-2017 at 10:33 PM..
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Old 08-15-2017, 04:41 PM
 
37,514 posts, read 25,243,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nonsense. It prevents the true love that God desires from us. No one can truly love someone they fear all the nonsense about reverence notwithstanding.
Amen! They are the ones blindly accepting the "precepts and doctrines of men" and NOT actually thinking about the meaning of the phrase God IS love.
Yes, unfortunately. It tickles their ears.
I suspect a combination, Jer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
There is no fear in Christ. True love is sharing the good news of Christ with your fellow man. "Go ye therefore and make new disciples...". Matt. 28
That is so much platitudinous nonsense. It is the fear of God and hellfire that drives so many to a belief in Christianity and NOT the love God and each other that Jesus professed.
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Old 08-16-2017, 05:31 AM
 
427 posts, read 95,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Irenaeus states that the belief of the church, received from the apostles, is that the punishment is everlasting and not merely temporal.

The Greek word for temporal is πρόσκαιρος - proskairos and refers to things that are temporary, transitory, lasting only for a time. This is in contrast with things which are permanent, eternal. Irenaeus stated that the belief of the church (his words don't imply a minority of believers) during his time (before the time of Augustine), is that the punishment is not temporal, but is eternal.
Actually sources - e.g. Strong's & Thayers - indicate a meaning of for a "season", as in summer, winter, fall & springtime, for proskairos. This is a period of 3 months. Irenaeus compares that to what is aionion, transliterated into English as eonian, pertaining to an eon or age. This does not equate to eternal.

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three | Concordant Publishing Concern


"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

Evidently the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) uses aionios of finite duration:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)

Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)

Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)

Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)

Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)

Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)

Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)

Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)

In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)

I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)

From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)

For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways, in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)

Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)





https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Last edited by ClementofA; 08-16-2017 at 06:16 AM..
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Old 08-16-2017, 05:54 AM
 
427 posts, read 95,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In Irenaeus's time, the church majority still held the belief handed down by the apostles that the punishment was eternal.
There is no proof of that & the evidence is questionable, as i've already pointed out in a post [#46] in this thread the other day. Furthermore:

"The manuscript evidence we have for the writings of Irenaeus is very slim. For his most important work, Against Heresies, there is an Armenian translation, a Latin manuscript from about AD 380 and there are a few quotes from Eusebius. Many of Irenaeus’ other writings are completely lost. Some skeptics question that Irenaeus was even a real person. This seems to be biased hypersketicism. The similarities between the Armenian and Latin manuscripts is sufficient and is sufficiently consistent with Eusebius, that I believe we can conclude that there was an important bishop named Irenaeus from Lyon in the second half of the second century and that he wrote the text of Against Heresies. However, we should hold out the possibility that some of what we have purporting to be from Irenaeus (especially the Latin manuscript) is a later interpolation. The data is simply too slight to assure that this did not happen. This has little effect on our understanding of the Bible or of true Christianity, but it could have some impact on Catholic or even Protestant use of Irenaeus."

"The Armenian manuscript only has two of the books of Against Heresies. For these books, since we have two different sources, it makes the likelihood that what we have is an interpolation in that section less. Based on things like writing style I suppose that scholars can make some reasonable decision about whether or not certain important passages (especially those about the preeminence of the Church in Rome) are interpolated. I would have to do more research if you want to ask about particular passages of Against Heresies."

"Sorry, but there will be some doubts about the writings of Irenaeus."

How reliable are the texts we have for the Didache, Irenaeus and Ignatius? | Evidence for Christianity

Was Irenaeus fabricated in the 4th century? : Christianity • Rational Skepticism Forum

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Irenaeus
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Old 08-16-2017, 06:26 AM
 
427 posts, read 95,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In Irenaeus's time, the church majority still held the belief [...] that the punishment was eternal.
Even if Irenaeus' writing wasn't altered or fabricated, and even if the claim was accurate that the majority of Christians at that time believed in endless punishment, universalism may have still been the most common belief of the 3 amongst Christians. For if a majority 55% believed in endless punishment, including 15% in endless torments & 40% in endless annihilation, then that leaves 45% as universalists, more than either of the other 2 views.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:36 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,457 posts, read 1,035,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Wrong, it also tends to make those who feel they are in the "right" position self-righteous. We see it all the time.
Wrong. Since the Bible is true, it guarantees we are in the right position, but is does not make us "self-righteous." We know that we have no righteousness and must put on the righteousness of Jesus.

2 Cor 5:21 - He made Him(Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I Cor 1:30 - But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:44 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nonsense. It prevents the true love that God desires from us.
How?

Quote:
No one can truly love someone they fear all the nonsense about reverence notwithstanding.
For Christians there is no need to fear God---There is no no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


Quote:
Amen! They are the ones blindly accepting the "precepts and doctrines of men" and NOT actually thinking about the meaning of the phrase God IS love.
Yes, unfortunately. It tickles their ears.
I suspect a combination, Jer.
What is in the Bible is not the precepts of men. What is in the Bible about hell is literal and it tickles the ears of some who accept the precepts of men that it is not. The think it makes them more loving.
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:45 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,457 posts, read 1,035,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The writers of the New Testament taught it. Paul taught it. John taught it. Matthew taught it. Matthew quotes Jesus as having taught it. Since the apostles were taught by Jesus it makes sense that they all believed in eternal punishment.
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:48 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
"They're toast", smiley face?

You're a poster child for how believing in Eternal Torment hardens one's heart.
You're the poster child for rejecting what the Bible clearly teaches. Jesus taught more about hell than He did about heaven.
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Old 08-18-2017, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Default The best good news ever!!!

By William Barclay (well known Bible expositor)
“I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end everyone will be gathered into the love of God. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.”
[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]

The writings of several dozens of other "convinced universalists."
The Authors Page

THREE MORE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
Christian Universalism Articles by Title
Christian Universalism Articles
God's Truth For Today!



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