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Old 08-19-2017, 03:27 PM
 
427 posts, read 95,207 times
Reputation: 61

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Wait a second. I take that back. I thought that was tutt replying. Actually, it's you, Clement. Seems Roger has chosen to completely ignore me. Apparently it's a one-way street with Roger. He wants to post his materials and have us read them but he has no interest in carrying on a dialogue. Isn't that against TOS somewhere? Isn't that called...umm....spamming?
1] If you look at his posting history, he does respond to other people's posts that he's interested in responding to.

2] I'm quite sure the rules on internet discussion forums in general don't require that one respond to every post or poster who attempts to start a discussion with you.

The testimony of rodger tutt
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Old 08-19-2017, 11:37 PM
 
427 posts, read 95,207 times
Reputation: 61
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:57 AM
 
526 posts, read 316,963 times
Reputation: 764
If universal salvation or the doctrine of annihilation are incorrect, and the majority of people are tormented in hell for eternity, then mankind would have been better off having never been created, and it could be argued God made a mistake creating mankind. It's true that God is a wrathful God, but as a loving God, why would he create mankind if he know most of them would endure infinite suffering, for eternity? It would also be illogical to have children especially in this day and age when there is a high chance that the child would embrace secularism like the vast majority of other young people.

This is why the doctrine of eternal hell for non believers doesn't make sense to me. Even the Catholic view of salvation is a bit rosier, that only those who completely reject God go to Hell, and many people go to purgatory, eventually making it to heaven (this isn't an official stance of the church, but many Catholics and even priests believe it).

Last edited by BongoBungo; 08-22-2017 at 12:08 PM..
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Old 08-24-2017, 08:24 AM
 
14,989 posts, read 7,526,891 times
Reputation: 1968
Quote:
Originally Posted by BongoBungo View Post
If universal salvation or the doctrine of annihilation are incorrect, and the majority of people are tormented in hell for eternity, then mankind would have been better off having never been created, and it could be argued God made a mistake creating mankind. It's true that God is a wrathful God, but as a loving God, why would he create mankind if he know most of them would endure infinite suffering, for eternity? It would also be illogical to have children especially in this day and age when there is a high chance that the child would embrace secularism like the vast majority of other young people.

This is why the doctrine of eternal hell for non believers doesn't make sense to me. Even the Catholic view of salvation is a bit rosier, that only those who completely reject God go to Hell, and many people go to purgatory, eventually making it to heaven (this isn't an official stance of the church, but many Catholics and even priests believe it).
Back when I still believed in the doctrine of Eternal Torment, but was beginning to question it a bit, I asked someone a similar question: If God knew that the majority of mankind would be enduring eternal suffering, why create THOSE people? Why not only create people who God knew would eventually be "saved"? That guy's answer was that the people bound for torment somehow served a purpose in the lives of those who are saved. It was okay that billions of people would suffer forever with zero hope of reprieve, because, somehow, they made the life of Christians better... The incredibly sad thing is, I actually thought that was a really great answer at the time.
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Old 08-25-2017, 03:04 PM
 
427 posts, read 95,207 times
Reputation: 61
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
Forum
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Old 08-26-2017, 03:45 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,128 posts, read 19,958,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Back when I still believed in the doctrine of Eternal Torment, but was beginning to question it a bit, I asked someone a similar question: If God knew that the majority of mankind would be enduring eternal suffering, why create THOSE people? Why not only create people who God knew would eventually be "saved"? That guy's answer was that the people bound for torment somehow served a purpose in the lives of those who are saved. It was okay that billions of people would suffer forever with zero hope of reprieve, because, somehow, they made the life of Christians better... The incredibly sad thing is, I actually thought that was a really great answer at the time.
It's like, "Sorry God that you created me without the ability to retain who you are, who i am and where i came from at some point in this earthly experience of mine, you are right i deserve to be eternally punished for this".

Namaste
Newagecamps
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Old 02-03-2018, 03:56 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,741,256 times
Reputation: 245
Post convinced Christian universalists

By William Barclay (well known Bible expositor)
“I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end everyone will be gathered into the love of God. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.”
[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]

The writings of several dozens of other "convinced universalists."
The Authors Page

FOUR MORE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
Christian Universalism Articles
God's Truth For Today!
http://www.biblicaluniversalism.org/articles.html

Last edited by rodgertutt; 02-03-2018 at 05:02 AM..
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:54 AM
 
4,049 posts, read 1,451,486 times
Reputation: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
By William Barclay (well known Bible expositor)
“I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end everyone will be gathered into the love of God. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.”
[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]

The writings of several dozens of other "convinced universalists."
The Authors Page

FOUR MORE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
Christian Universalism Articles
God's Truth For Today!
BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM: The Purest Expression of the Gospel!


After the goats, satan and fallen angels are destroyed forever in the lake of fire--All will be lovers of God. They prove it now.
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,741,256 times
Reputation: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
After the goats, satan and fallen angels are destroyed forever in the lake of fire--All will be lovers of God. They prove it now.
DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ARE NOT ETERNAL
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story…that’s why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, “Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie,” I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet “hell mindset” Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived inherited ideas.

"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
What Does it Mean to "Perish?"

FROM ALL IN ALL – A.E. KNOCH
“The terms translated ‘forever’ and ‘everlasting’ and ‘never’ are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times.

Destruction, like salvation, is eonian. It is not the end or aim of God. God destroys nothing that He will not restore. He loses nothing that will not return to Him laden with praise and glory for Himself. Destruction is a passing process, not a finished goal. Through God it will work out the welfare of all of His creatures and the glory of our Saviour."

I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God’s grace in action among the celestials.
https://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
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Old 02-03-2018, 01:28 PM
 
4,049 posts, read 1,451,486 times
Reputation: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ARE NOT ETERNAL
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story…that’s why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, “Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie,” I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet “hell mindset” Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived inherited ideas.

"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
What Does it Mean to "Perish?"

FROM ALL IN ALL – A.E. KNOCH
“The terms translated ‘forever’ and ‘everlasting’ and ‘never’ are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times.

Destruction, like salvation, is eonian. It is not the end or aim of God. God destroys nothing that He will not restore. He loses nothing that will not return to Him laden with praise and glory for Himself. Destruction is a passing process, not a finished goal. Through God it will work out the welfare of all of His creatures and the glory of our Saviour."

I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God’s grace in action among the celestials.
https://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html

The true God= Deuteronomy 30:19---Life or DEATH--both are everlasting.
There are some pretty strange teachings being thrown around.
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