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Old 04-04-2016, 01:52 PM
 
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"here we go again"
45 page blast from the past:
The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation
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Old 04-04-2016, 03:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
"here we go again"
45 page blast from the past:
The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation


Mike is wrong . Much evidence points to the fact that the many early church fathers taught universal salvation . Out of the 6 Christian theology schools of early Christianity, four taught universal reconciliation .

St Jerome admitted that " most " people of his time accepted universal reconciliation.

I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome




St Augustine admits that " many " people did .

There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)






The first church father to attack universal reconciliation was Augustine, who converted to Christianity from Manichaeism, which taught that there were equal powers of good and evil in the spiritual realm . Before Augustine the concept of universal reconciliation was not attacked by any church father . But the vengeful Latin belief of Augustine won the day largely through politics and a more powerful state , but many early church fathers believed as shown below.

For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. --Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D


The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428


Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church


All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not. For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?—Clement of Alexandria



Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)



To close , which is the more powerful version of redemption and forgiveness , the Latin concept of eternal punishment for 70 years on Earth, or the Greek concept of having your sinful will purged through chastisement and then reconciliation with God for eternity.

The Latin version seems kind of puny in comparison.

Last edited by wallflash; 04-04-2016 at 04:49 PM..
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Old 04-04-2016, 03:56 PM
 
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Once again, making things according to the pattern......there were 2 trees in the midst of the garden. There were 2 pieces of furniture in the midst of the tabernacle permanently, the golden candlestick and the table of showbread.

Therefore, if the midst of the Tabernacle represents the priesthood who HAVE received the baptism in His Spirit, and the outer court represents EVERYBODY ELSE, then if that's the MIDST of HIS GARDEN, THEN THE WHOLE THING IS HIS GARDEN. Peace
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
I was working for a guy a couple of years back. One lunchtime, he had his Bible out on the desk at work - I thought, 'very bold, not many people do that'. I got talking to him about his faith, etc. He was an elder in a church. We read through Matthew together on a Friday lunchtime. .... It wasnt long after I'd become a more hard-line universalist, lol. When we got to Matthew 5, I said 'of course, all this nice stuff happens to meek and pure in heart people - Jesus is not telling people the ABC's of salvation - he's obviously talking to the crowd - everyone who is there'. My friend said, 'he's talking to the disciples.' ...it wasn't much later in the conversation where he asked me if I believe Satan will repent. I said yes, eventually. He said, 'that is the logical conclusion of universalism'. Which I thought was very astute of him. Hopefully he'll have turned from the ET nonsense by now, after all, what is the point in loving your enemies if you're going to make them suffer interminably.
That is correct Age-enduring. I hope you don't mind me bolding the above part.
I would add, what is the point in loving God if He is going to eternally torture the majority of mankind for eternity? Who could love, worship and adore such a being who is far worse than the gods of the pagans?

I sure am glad God has promised us He "will have all humans to be saved and come into a realization of the truth because there is just one God and just one mediator of God and man, the man, Christ Jesus who gave Himself a ransom for all" (see 1 Tim.2:4-6).
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:14 AM
 
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I think the above statement says everything.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,203 posts, read 15,327,124 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

I think the above statement says everything.

That statement could be taken from a different viewpoint - in that if it is true that God was trying to save all men (which He isn't) - then that would imply the creature is omnipotent if they could reject Him (which is false).

What publication did that quote come from?
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:42 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,886,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
That statement could be taken from a different viewpoint - in that if it is true that God was trying to save all men (which He isn't) - then that would imply the creature is omnipotent if they could reject Him (which is false).

What publication did that quote come from?
The Sovereignty of God | Reformed Spirit.

A.W. Pink did not, as far as I can tell, believe God will save all mankind.

If you would like to read "A Reply to Universalism Refuted" in which A.W. Pink is replied to, you can go here:
A Reply to "Universalism Refuted" - Part One

From my perspective and that of the apostle Paul's, since God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all [mankind], (1 Tim.2:4-6) man does not have a will to resist God's ultimate goal for humanity.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:44 AM
 
21,605 posts, read 16,590,389 times
Reputation: 8554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
"here we go again"
45 page blast from the past:
The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
Mike is wrong . Much evidence points to the fact that the many early church fathers taught universal salvation . Out of the 6 Christian theology schools of early Christianity, four taught universal reconciliation .

St Jerome admitted that " most " people of his time accepted universal reconciliation.

I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome




St Augustine admits that " many " people did .

There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)






The first church father to attack universal reconciliation was Augustine, who converted to Christianity from Manichaeism, which taught that there were equal powers of good and evil in the spiritual realm . Before Augustine the concept of universal reconciliation was not attacked by any church father . But the vengeful Latin belief of Augustine won the day largely through politics and a more powerful state , but many early church fathers believed as shown below.

For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. --Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D


The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428


Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church


All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not. For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?—Clement of Alexandria



Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)



To close , which is the more powerful version of redemption and forgiveness , the Latin concept of eternal punishment for 70 years on Earth, or the Greek concept of having your sinful will purged through chastisement and then reconciliation with God for eternity.

The Latin version seems kind of puny in comparison.
No, I'm not wrong. Long before the time of Augustine (c. A.D. 354- 430) eternal condemnation was the belief of the church as can be seen from the quotations of the early church fathers which I posted in the first post of my thread - The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation
Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2, [110 A.D.]) ''Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him.

Clement of Rome (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D.150]) ''If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest, but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment.''

(Second Clement 8:4) ''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet time for repentance.''


(Second Clement 8:5) ''After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will belong to us.'' (In other words, Clement is saying that you must make the decision to believe in Christ while you are alive on this earth.)

Justin Martyr (First Apology 12 [150 A.D]) ''No more is it possible for the evil doer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of Fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments.''

Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII [150 A.D.]) ''And we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment, and not only as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if anyone say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of any harm.'' (Justin is clear in stating that the punishment is eternal and not for a temporary amount of time.)

Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII [150 A.D.]) ''For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold.''

Irenaeus of Lyons (Against Heresies, 4:28:2 [189 A.D]) ''The penalty increases for those who do not believe the word of God and despise his coming. It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomever the Lor shall say,'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,'' they will be damned forever.'' (Notice the reference to Matthew 25:41)

I have used only a few of the early church leaders as evidence of the early churches teaching of eternal condemnation. There are more, such as; Polycarp (155 A.D.); Athenagoras (177 A.D.); Theophilus of Antioch (181 A.D.); Mathetes (160 A.D.)

Now here are the links:

What Early Christians believed about Hell & Eternal Punishment

Who were the early church fathers?

What Did the Early Christians Believe About Hell? (http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/inde...eve_About_Hell - broken link)
Oh, there may have been some who believed in universalism even in the first century since there have always been differing beliefs, but as can be seen from those statements of the early church fathers prior to the time of Augustine, eternal condemnation was certainly the belief of the early church in the second century.

As I also said in that post, ''It should be pointed out that what matters is what the Bible teaches about the eternal lake of fire. Not what the church at any time in history says about it. But as it turns out, the early church is in agreement with the Bible.''

At any rate, despite an old thread of mine having been posted on this thread by someone, I'm not going to participate in the discussion beyond this point just as I have not participated prior to this. The quotations of the 2nd century church fathers are posted above for all to see. And, so, but, therefore . . .

Last edited by Mike555; 04-06-2016 at 12:07 PM..
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:13 PM
 
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Mike555, I think it would be helpful for you to read this and educate yourself fuller on this matter:

The History of Universalism | The Christian Universalist Association

St. Gregory of Nyssa was definitely a Universalist and he was one of the crafters of the Nicene Creed. No one came against him concerning his belief that God will save all. There were many others too as the above link will show.

Also, the Bible does not say the lake of fire is eternal.

Revelation 20:10

(ABP+) AndG2532 theG3588 devil,G1228 the oneG3588 misleadingG4105 themG1473 was castG906 intoG1519 theG3588 lakeG3041 G3588 of fireG4442 andG2532 sulphur,G2303 whereG3699 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 theG3588 false prophet are .G5578 AndG2532 they shall be tormentedG928 dayG2250 andG2532 nightG3571 intoG1519 theG3588 eonsG165 of theG3588 eons.G165

(CLV) And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."

(Darby) And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages.

(GNT) καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου, ὅπου καὶ τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

(GNT-V) και ο διαβολος ο πλανων αυτους εβληθη εις την λιμνην του πυρος και θειου οπου BAκαι το θηριον και ο ψευδοπροφητης και βασανισθησονται ημερας και νυκτος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων

(GNT-WH+) καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM διαβολοςG1228 A-NSM οG3588 T-NSM πλανωνG4105 V-PAP-NSM αυτουςG846 P-APM εβληθηG906 V-API-3S ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF λιμνηνG3041 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSN πυροςG4442 N-GSN καιG2532 CONJ θειουG2303 N-GSN οπουG3699 ADV καιG2532 CONJ τοG3588 T-NSN θηριονG2342 N-NSN καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM ψευδοπροφητηςG5578 N-NSM καιG2532 CONJ βασανισθησονταιG928 V-FPI-3P ημεραςG2250 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ νυκτοςG3571 N-GSF ειςG1519 PREP τουςG3588 T-APM αιωναςG165 N-APM τωνG3588 T-GPM αιωνωνG165 N-GPM


(LITV) And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

(LXX+WH+) καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM διαβολοςG1228 A-NSM οG3588 T-NSM πλανωνG4105[G5723] V-PAP-NSM αυτουςG846 P-APM εβληθηG906[G5681] V-API-3S ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF λιμνηνG3041 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSN πυροςG4442 N-GSN καιG2532 CONJ θειουG2303 N-GSN οπουG3699 ADV καιG2532 CONJ τοG3588 T-NSN θηριονG2342 N-NSN καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM ψευδοπροφητηςG5578 N-NSM καιG2532 CONJ βασανισθησονταιG928[G5701] V-FPI-3P ημεραςG2250 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ νυκτοςG3571 N-GSF ειςG1519 PREP τουςG3588 T-APM αιωναςG165 N-APM τωνG3588 T-GPM αιωνωνG165 N-GPM

(WNT) and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.

(YLT) and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.

The ages of the ages are the final two ages which are the greatest ages of all the ages which went before. The final two ages are not eternal.

And if you are going to take the Bible over later church doctrine then you should believe God when He tells us that He "will have all mankind to be saved for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all."

Since you don't understand what is behind the word "ransom" and that it was for all, you can't understand why God will save all.

Last edited by Eusebius; 04-06-2016 at 12:23 PM..
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Georgia
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If all were going to heaven, there would be no such thing as hell.
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